Gentles,

 

I am deep into a project that will have a small (7.00 w x 2.50 h) drawer in
the midst of an apron, and am trying to come up with the best way to saw it
out. The best idea thus far (trying on scrap) is to mark off a cut line and
then deepening a couple inches of it, using veneer and gents saws, until I
open a slot in the ¾ stock, then using a keyhole saw to work out from there
in both directions. The cutout will become a drawer front (continuous grain)
and there is a small cockbead that surrounds the hole (not drawer front) so
some small sawing error will be acceptable.

 

I’m not inclined to do the “rip the stock into three pieces, cut out the
drawer front from the middle piece, then glue it back together” as I fear it
will be quite noticeable because the project is somewhat diminutive and the
apron is more “in your face” than on a table, for example.

 

Anyone have another idea?

 

Dennis Heyza

New Baltimore, Michigan

Not a simple task. I'm thinking your keyhole saw will create a wider 
kerf than you'll want.

Maybe consider using a scroll, fret or coping saw. AND if you have 
something like this� ( or feel the need for one ;-) )

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/hand-
tools/saws/japanese/48338-japanese-rip-tooth-dozuki?item=60T0404

Don
On 2023-11-24 3:48 p.m., Dennis Heyza wrote:
> Gentles,
>
>   
>
> I am deep into a project that will have a small (7.00 w x 2.50 h) drawer in
> the midst of an apron, and am trying to come up with the best way to saw it
> out. The best idea thus far (trying on scrap) is to mark off a cut line and
> then deepening a couple inches of it, using veneer and gents saws, until I
> open a slot in the � stock, then using a keyhole saw to work out from there
> in both directions. The cutout will become a drawer front (continuous grain)
> and there is a small cockbead that surrounds the hole (not drawer front) so
> some small sawing error will be acceptable.
>
>   
>
> I\u2019m not inclined to do the \u201crip the stock into three pieces, cut out
the
> drawer front from the middle piece, then glue it back together\u201d as I fear
it
> will be quite noticeable because the project is somewhat diminutive and the
> apron is more \u201cin your face\u201d than on a table, for example.
>
>   
>
> Anyone have another idea?
>
>   
>
> Dennis Heyza
>
> New Baltimore, Michigan
>
>
>
> 
>
>

-- 

"You only have to do a few things right in your life so long as you 
don\u2019t do too many things wrong." - Warren Buffet

\u201cTo argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, 
and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like 
administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist 
by scripture.\u201d \u2015 Thomas Paine, The American Crisis

I've wondered about using an azebiki style saw for this application.  They
have a narrow kerf and start a cut in the middle of a panel.  They can be
had for a reasonable price -
https://www.fine-tools.com/azebiki.html

As the Schmid ad copy states -
"if you have a drawer front to cut from a board with the grain matching the
sides,.....The Azebiki is the solution."

I have no practical experience with one, but would try it if I had the need.

Phil

Hi Dennis!

 re: the 'azebiki'....Who wouldn't be sorely temted by the 'need' for this
wonderful tool? But surely the cock beading really will eliminate any worries
about the size of the kerf. You must have a veneer saw, fret saw, flooring saw
or rabbet saw that'll work perfectly well. Nothing will save you, though, if you
splinter the face so be emphatic with your scoring of layout lines. And all the
best--
               gam in OlyWA, thankful for this quiet day


"If you were Einstein's father, we wouldn't have the bomb." Peggy Hill
 

    On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 05:07:29 PM PST, Phil Schempf
 wrote:
 
 I've wondered about using an azebiki style saw for this application.  They
have a narrow kerf and start a cut in the middle of a panel.  They can be
had for a reasonable price -
https://www.fine-tools.com/azebiki.html

As the Schmid ad copy states -
"if you have a drawer front to cut from a board with the grain matching the
sides,.....The Azebiki is the solution."

I have no practical experience with one, but would try it if I had the need.

Phil

Serendipitously, I have been wrestling with the same issue over a desk top. My
answer is to arrange the boards that make up the top in an appropriate manner
and widths to preserve the grain, cut my insert, glue up the top sans insert,
and then I’ll ’hide’ the join with ebony stringing - into an oak top, so it
should look good.

My accidental davenport has a secret drawer, cut directly into the mahogany side
panel, and it intrigued me as to the cutting out. Never going to be invisible in
a polished panel, but very overlookable.  My best guess at how it was made is
some careful work with an extremely fine blade, and it must surely have worked
between blocks, or even make up a thin blade, slotted to allow movement,, but
secured against the block with large washer and screw to keep it captive.

All of this so far is assuming cut from solid.  Now, it may be that you could
rip a veneer from the face of the board.  You dont say what size the apron is,
but ‘apron’ suggests long and narrow to me, so maybe a veneer is the
answer.  Old ones were 1/8 thick or so, but nowadays, with mechanical help, you
could maybe get down to half that.  Now you are in scalpel country.

Cut the drawer front out of the veneer, glue everything back together, and your
uncle Bob will never know.  Here’s a pic, as I’m looking at thing now

https://groups.io/g/oldtools/album?id=291148
Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot, in sunny, raining Northumberland
>
> I am deep into a project that will have a small (7.00 w x 2.50 h) drawer in
> the midst of an apron, and am trying to come up with the best way to saw it
> out. The best idea thus far (trying on scrap) is to mark off a cut line and
> then deepening a couple inches of it, using veneer and gents saws, until I
> open a slot in the ¾ stock, then using a keyhole saw to work out from there
> in both directions. The cutout will become a drawer front (continuous grain)
> and there is a small cockbead that surrounds the hole (not drawer front) so
> some small sawing error will be acceptable.
>
>
>
> I’m not inclined to do the “rip the stock into three pieces, cut out the
> drawer front from the middle piece, then glue it back together” as I fear it
> will be quite noticeable because the project is somewhat diminutive and the
> apron is more “in your face” than on a table, for example.
>
> Anyone have another idea?
>
>
> Dennis Heyza


-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300

Im with Don on the keyhole “normally” making a wide kerf. I’m guessing you
could hammer the set out, but the blade would still be thick.  The Japanese
saw noted below might get you narrower.  My floor and stair saws are both
wide of kerf.

The coping saws give me thoughts of wandering, but you’ve mentioned some
ability to hide them.

Kirk in Half Moon Bay, CA

Sent from my iPad, apologies for the Auto Correct errors. Kirk


On Fri, Nov 24, 2023 at 4:07 PM Don Schwartz  wrote:

> Not a simple task. I'm thinking your keyhole saw will create a wider
> kerf than you'll want.
>
>


-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA 

Phil, Gary, et al,

All good suggestions, though I’d pass on the azebiki. I’m long past acquisition
mode, particularly single use solutions.

The object in question is 18th Century and in a private collection, so I
developed my working drawings off a two photos and the known height, though I
was lucky enough to find someone who did restoration work on it almost thirty
years ago and has offered tidbits of information - mostly related to hidden
details - as he recalls them. While I do not expect to produce an exact replica,
I want it as close as reasonably possible under the circumstances.

Here’s a photo of the drawer in question.

https://tinyurl.com/3rfepmk4

The drawer, which is roughly 7 x 2.5, sits in the apron surrounded by dark and
light areas. At first I assumed those were inlays, hence my question. But after
more thought, I just couldn't see an 18th century cabinetmaker cutting a drawer
front out of the apron the way I was thinking... just too much time. So I
emailed the conservator last night, and have now learned the dark area is
actually 3/4 deep, and of a different wood than the apron, meaning it is glued
in. The light area is slightly proud and gently rounded over. Considering the
dark part is glued in full depth, I now wonder if the light wood was also full
depth (he couldn't say). If so, the apron cutout would be quite a bit larger
than the drawer and require a good less care and effort than I thought. So I'm
now thinking of drilling a small hole in each corner and using a coping saw to
cut the opening a little shy of the outside edge, perhaps 1/16. I can then pare
the opening to size, and plane down the resulting drawer front accordingly.

Does that seem reasonable given the new information and photo?

Dennis


From: gary may  
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2023 8:29 PM
To: Dennis Heyza ; Phil Schempf 
Cc: Oldtools 
Subject: Re: [oldtools] cutting out for a drawer

Hi Dennis!
 re: the 'azebiki'....Who wouldn't be sorely temted by the 'need' for this
wonderful tool? But surely the cock beading really will eliminate any worries
about the size of the kerf. You must have a veneer saw, fret saw, flooring saw
or rabbet saw that'll work perfectly well. Nothing will save you, though, if you
splinter the face so be emphatic with your scoring of layout lines. And all the
best--

               gam in OlyWA, thankful for this quiet day


"If you were Einstein's father, we wouldn't have the bomb." Peggy Hill


On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 05:07:29 PM PST, Phil Schempf
<mailto:philschempf@g...> wrote:


I've wondered about using an azebiki style saw for this application.  They
have a narrow kerf and start a cut in the middle of a panel.  They can be
had for a reasonable price -
https://www.fine-tools.com/azebiki.html

As the Schmid ad copy states -
"if you have a drawer front to cut from a board with the grain matching the
sides,.....The Azebiki is the solution."

I have no practical experience with one, but would try it if I had the need.

Phil

Here’s an idea, but it will require the strength and quickness of a young
person.

Take your veneer saw

Make cuts roughly 1/4inch long, with a frequency of….say…..60 strokes per
second. If you’re in Europe, 50 will do.

I kid you not, your saw will look like it’s melting through the wood.

Once you’re through, you can use whatever saw you’d like to finish the cut.
Repeat for each side.

If your age (and wisdom!) prevents such dexterity, even with coffee, you’ll want
to search out someone younger. Or another form of apprentice.

Keep us posted!

Matthew Groves
Springfield, MO

If you ask me, Dennis, I think if you make it *look* like the original, and work
that way too, you've accomplished your goal. What goes in this drawer, the key
to the rectory?

                it sure is pretty---gam in OlyWA



How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them! 
Jane Austen 

    On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 07:57:29 AM PST, Dennis Heyza
 wrote:
 
 Phil, Gary, et al,

All good suggestions, though I’d pass on the azebiki. I’m long past acquisition
mode, particularly single use solutions.

The object in question is 18th Century and in a private collection, so I
developed my working drawings off a two photos and the known height, though I
was lucky enough to find someone who did restoration work on it almost thirty
years ago and has offered tidbits of information - mostly related to hidden
details - as he recalls them. While I do not expect to produce an exact replica,
I want it as close as reasonably possible under the circumstances.

Here’s a photo of the drawer in question.

https://tinyurl.com/3rfepmk4

The drawer, which is roughly 7 x 2.5, sits in the apron surrounded by dark and
light areas. At first I assumed those were inlays, hence my question. But after
more thought, I just couldn't see an 18th century cabinetmaker cutting a drawer
front out of the apron the way I was thinking... just too much time. So I
emailed the conservator last night, and have now learned the dark area is
actually 3/4 deep, and of a different wood than the apron, meaning it is glued
in. The light area is slightly proud and gently rounded over. Considering the
dark part is glued in full depth, I now wonder if the light wood was also full
depth (he couldn't say). If so, the apron cutout would be quite a bit larger
than the drawer and require a good less care and effort than I thought. So I'm
now thinking of drilling a small hole in each corner and using a coping saw to
cut the opening a little shy of the outside edge, perhaps 1/16. I can then pare
the opening to size, and plane down the resulting drawer front accordingly.

Does that seem reasonable given the new information and photo?

Dennis


From: gary may  
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2023 8:29 PM
To: Dennis Heyza ; Phil Schempf 
Cc: Oldtools 
Subject: Re: [oldtools] cutting out for a drawer

Hi Dennis!
 re: the 'azebiki'....Who wouldn't be sorely temted by the 'need' for this
wonderful tool? But surely the cock beading really will eliminate any worries
about the size of the kerf. You must have a veneer saw, fret saw, flooring saw
or rabbet saw that'll work perfectly well. Nothing will save you, though, if you
splinter the face so be emphatic with your scoring of layout lines. And all the
best--

              gam in OlyWA, thankful for this quiet day


"If you were Einstein's father, we wouldn't have the bomb." Peggy Hill


On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 05:07:29 PM PST, Phil Schempf
<mailto:philschempf@g...> wrote:


I've wondered about using an azebiki style saw for this application.  They
have a narrow kerf and start a cut in the middle of a panel.  They can be
had for a reasonable price -
https://www.fine-tools.com/azebiki.html

As the Schmid ad copy states -
"if you have a drawer front to cut from a board with the grain matching the
sides,.....The Azebiki is the solution."

I have no practical experience with one, but would try it if I had the need.

Phil

a coupla caveats. The japanese saws would absolutely be my choice as well,
BUT they gotta be cut  absolutely square through (use guide blocks) a
coupla degrees off each side and you ain't gonna get your cut out out. It
will be bound.  and for the upright cuts, you may not be able to get the
japanese saws in to finish the cut.

There are Japanese style blades for olfa cutters that may find application.
Methinks they are referred to as "razorsaws"

Eric in calgary

Gary,

 

Actually, it holds the winding key for a clockworks… and whatever else you might
want to squeeze into it.

 

The drawer is in a base for a shelf clock, c1790. I purposely cropped out the
rest of the image as it’s a hi-res from the conservator and I don’t have his
permission to distribute it, but the best description I can give is a  tall
clock bonnet (reduced dimensions) on stand. All that said, I will provide
evidence of a finished project at the proper time.

 

From: gary may  
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2023 7:27 PM
To: 'Phil Schempf' ; Dennis Heyza 
Cc: 'Oldtools' 
Subject: Re: [oldtools] cutting out for a drawer

 

If you ask me, Dennis, I think if you make it *look* like the original, and work
that way too, you've accomplished your goal. What goes in this drawer, the key
to the rectory?