Hello All,

	I've been a subscriber for about a week now and I might as
well get started.  I've got a reasonable amount of experience being
`handy', but I'm now looking at getting into woodworking.  When I say
handy, I mean that I'm comfortable with tools.  I've got more
woodworking experience than the average American, but that's not
saying too much.  Years ago, I worked with my uncle (a master
carpenter) to build several projects, culminating in a nice
table/nightstand complete with a drawer.  Of all things.  Anyway,
that's all more or less meaningless since MOST of the work was done by
him and I just got to do a little working and a lot of watching.
Which was fine at the time, but I regret it now.  Jesus, I'm rambling
already.  The point is that I'm comfortable with tools and wood.  Now
I just want to put the two together.

	I want to start out easy, doing everyone's favorite beginner
project, the picture frame.  Several of them.  After that, I'd like to
tackle something significantly more challenging like a Shaker-style
table.  I want to start with some cheap and easy wood like pine, so
that I won't feel too bad when I screw up.  And, for the love of God,
I don't want to buy moulding.  I want to fill my knuckles with
splinters by squaring and truing the stock myself.

	Aside from that, we have to start talking tools.  I'm
interested in hand tools both for the simplicity they provide and
embody and for the fact that my shop doesn't have electricity.  :) So
there we have it.  I've got a short list of tools that I *think* that
I'll need to get started.  I'm trying to keep this short so that I can
keep sticker shock to a minimum.  I can then add tools as future
projects demand.  (BTW, I've looked in the archives but haven't seen
anything particular to what I'm looking for.)

Saws:
    `standard' handsaw
	- this I have; a generic handsaw from Crap Depot; cross cut, I
	  think 
    dovetail or small tenon saw

Planes:
    jack plane (for the rough stuff)
    smoothing plane (for finishing)

Chisels:
    1/4", 1/2" and 1"

Misc:
    try square
    sliding bevel
    various clamps
	- probably of the Quick-Grip variety

	I've already got a hammer, screwdrivers, folding rule and
bench.  I'm also planning on scrounging for some scraps so I can put
together some bench hooks, bench stops and the like.  Now for a few
questions:

	1) Any comments on the above list for a very basic starting
set?  Additions?  Removals?  Extra considerations?

	2) Will a smaller, finer toothed dovetail saw be suitable for
small tenons?  I can't imagine it wouldn't be, but you all would know
better.  If I really get into this, the biggest tenon I'll be working
on will probably be no more than 3" long and probably only about an
inch deep.

	3) What about planes?  That will probably be my biggest
expense since any one nice plane will cost >$50.  Would it be feasible
to look for an adjustable plane?  Hell, I don't even know if such
things exist.  How about this: what should I do about planes?

	4) Shopping.  Where do you folks go to look for quality tools?
Internet stores and eBay are one option, of course.  If I end up in an
actual, real store, are there any particular brands that I should look
out for?  Either to consider or to avoid?  I'd like to avoid big box
stores, if possible.  I've had a nice time looking around the Lee
Valley website, but that's about the only tool site that I'm familiar
with.  Well, and Rockler.com, but the very first sentence on their
site is `Be the first to own...' and that's just so very off putting.

	So, I open myself up to your advice.  Have at it and hopefully
I'll learn a thing or two.

Clayton
Belmont, MA

I like Tony's list-- good information, and good advice.

Here's another take on the "basic tools to get started", only more
project-oriented in nature.  This originally came off the OldTools list,
posted by Walt Barry (another guy I really miss from the "old days") about
6-7 years ago, and I converted it to HTML and added some basic CAD drawings.

http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/table/table.htm

>
> Aside from that, we have to start talking tools.  I'm
> interested in hand tools both for the simplicity they provide and
> embody and for the fact that my shop doesn't have electricity.  :) So
> there we have it.  I've got a short list of tools that I *think* that
> I'll need to get started.  I'm trying to keep this short so that I can
> keep sticker shock to a minimum.  I can then add tools as future
> projects demand.  (BTW, I've looked in the archives but haven't seen
> anything particular to what I'm looking for.)
>

Twice in one day we dive into the archives

http://oldetoolshop.com/jointer/toollist.html

I guess the prices are close to reasonable, considering that changes every 5
minutes what with the 'Bay

Tony

> 	1) Any comments on the above list for a very basic starting
> set?  Additions?  Removals?  Extra considerations?

You might look some more at how you're going to measure stock.  A 
marking gauge is really handy.   You'll either want to plan on making 
or buying a mallet 'real soon' too.  

Are you planning on drilling any holes?   Ever need to cut a curve?  
How about shaping a curved piece?  How are you planning on sharpening 
those chisels?  They won't come sharp and won't stay sharp ;-)  In 
short, while I applaud your short list, there are some basics that 
probably should be on it.  If I were you I'd head to a flea market 
and pick up 

1) brace and some bits
2) coping saw
3) spokeshave
4) 10" mill file & at least one sharpening stone
5) block plane (eg - Stanley 9 1/2 or 60 1/2)

....and, if you can afford to drop another $7-10, find a Disston D-8 
to replace that Home Depot saw.  

Some here will cringe but personally I couldn't live without my dozuki 
saw, mostly because I can't afford to buy a really good dovetail saw.  
The unsung advantage of the Japanese saws is that good ones are VERY 
cheap relative to good western saws.  If you're on a budget, you 
might consider them.

> 	2) Will a smaller, finer toothed dovetail saw be suitable for
> small tenons?  I can't imagine it wouldn't be, but you all would

The problem, when you start talking about this stuff, is that you 
either have to get lucky and find a good one at an auction, or be 
willing to drop $125-150 on one.  If you're going to do dovetails and 
tenons you do need a fine-cutting saw (theoretically you need two to 
cut tenons) but you could get by with a $30 dozuki.

> 	3) What about planes?  That will probably be my biggest
> expense since any one nice plane will cost >$50.  

Assuming that you're not talking about shopping at Home Depot, you 
should be able to get a #4 smooth plane and a #5 jack plane cheaper 
than that at a flea market.  Both would be better than anything you 
can buy off the shelf for $50.

> Would it be feasible to look for an adjustable plane?  Hell, I don't 
even know if such things exist.

Adjustable in what way?  The difference between a smooth plane and a 
jack plane is mostly the length of the sole.  I guess another good 
piece of advice is to spend a whole bunch of time reading about hand 
tools, their use, etc.  A good place to start, of course, is:

http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/galtprog.html

>  How about this: what should I do about
> planes?

Read the survival tips and flea market tips on the site above (and 
everything else you can find on the subject) and then go to a flea 
market and buy yourself a decent #4 plane.  Clean and sharpen it and 
then play with it while you're learning more.   This should give you 
a feel for what you need or don't need in terms of more planes.  Let 
your projects and what's available at the flea market determine what 
you buy.

> 	4) Shopping.  Where do you folks go to look for quality tools?
> Internet stores and eBay are one option, of course.  If I end up in

You need some definition of 'quality tools' here, Clayton, and then 
you need to associate that with your budget.  You could have a lot of 
fun with a few Lie-Nielson planes, an Adria tenon saw set, and the 
like and they sure would qualify as 'quality tools' but you're also 
talking about spending several hundred dollars for a single plane.

> particular brands that I
> should look out for?  Either to consider or to avoid?  I'd like to
> avoid big box stores, if possible.  I've had a nice time looking

Here, I perceive, is your big problem.  You really need to learn 
something about hand tools before you buy any more than what you 
have.  The reason is pretty basic...you'll end up with a bunch of 
stuff that's not satisfying to work with and that costs you more than 
it should.  For instance, my guess is that virtually everyone in this 
forum uses Stanley and/or Miller Falls planes of one for or another.  
My guess is also that they wouldn't give you a dime for the Stanley 
planes sold from their current production.

So...answering your question is harder than you might think.  Most of 
the guys here do haunt auctions, flea markets, antique stores.  
That's where they do their buying and the reason is that the older 
tools are often MUCH cheaper and almost always MUCH better.

I'm something of a newbie at this myself so I know what you're 
struggling with.  The only thing I can suggest is that knowledge (and 
there's plenty of info on the web for anyone wanting to become 
knowledgeable) is the answer.  Just to give you something to ponder, 
here's my limited plane collection and what I've paid for them (rough 
USD cost as I'm in Canada):

Stanley #3: $19 (small smooth plane)
Record #4: $15 (standard size smooth plane)
Stanley #5: $10 (jack plane)
Stanley #7: $35 (jointer plane)
Stanley 9 1/2: $10 (block plane)
Stanley #54: $3 (spokeshave)
Stanley #48: $3 (spokeshave)

I've got several really small planes too but they're more specialized 
and not helpful.   I feel I'm really lacking in the area of rabbet 
and shoulder planes.

I could provide a list of everything I've bought at flea markets but 
it wouldn't further the point.  The bottom line is that my Stanley #5 
has nice rosewood handles, really nice, heavy cast sole, etc.  By 
contrast, I could have wandered into the local Home Depot (or Lee 
Valley for that matter) and bought a modern one, with its plastic 
(can you saw yuck) handles and I would have gotten to pay at least 
$50 for it.  

Now, it is the case that my $10 plane had some rust on it and it had 
what seem to be the inevitable paint spatter on it.  So...in addition 
to my $10 I had to pay an hour or so of my time to clean it up.  I 
also had to sharpen it but then you have to do that with new tools 
too.  I hope you see my point that you can save a LOT of money and 
end up with better tools if you'll just listen to all the good advice 
the Galoots have posted on their various websites and have written in 
the list archives.  I know I have and the money I did spend gave me 
very good working tools.

> around the Lee Valley website, but that's about the only tool site
> that I'm familiar with.

Again, then you need to do more websurfing.  Lee Valley is my 
favorite, though.  They provide great service to me in Quebec.  I 
don't buy Stanley planes from them but I have bought scrapers, my 
dozuki, finishing materials, sharpening stuff, etc., etc.....in 
short...probably way too much :-)

Hopefully some of this might help you.  Take it as coming from a guy 
who's no more than a couple steps ahead of you but maybe that 
perspective would be of some use to you.

-- 
Cheers --- Larry Marshall
Quebec City, QC 

Clayton Carter wrote:

> 	I want to start out easy, doing everyone's favorite beginner
> project, the picture frame.

I don't know if a picture frame is the best beginning project if you 
are a rank beginner.  To get it done well you have to have a few tools 
and a bit of knowledge.  A better first project may be a small bench 
where all of the cuts are square and nothing has to match up very 
closely to have a successful end.

Ed Minch

All the tools in the world won't help if they ain't sharp....Learn how
to sharpen.......i suggest going to a class. i have seen them offered at
woodworking stores....until i finally felt i knew how to sharpen a plane
blade and a chisel i never felt "whole"...Dull tools are a drag....they
just make you want to go do something else right then......waiting for
that magic moment to come by just reading and practicing..well...don't
wait ...just sign up for a class on sharpening and get it over
with...then practice practice... i didn't because of whatever ....and in
retrospect know it would have advanced my skills much quicker and
without as much frustration....golly gee this ain't golf...woodworking
is suppose to relax me!!!DON ( who's next project is the Room Of Rust)

--- Clayton Carter  wrote:
> 	I want to start out easy, doing everyone's favorite
> beginner
> project, the picture frame.  

If you're going to do picture frames by hand, an
invaluable tool will be the mitre shooting board. 

This is a pretty standard appliance (isn't that the
term for a jig for hand tools?) so is described in a
lot of the standard books. You can also read a very
nice article on them by our own Don McConnell in the
August 2003 issue of Popular Woodworking, most likely
available at your local library. These are easy to
make and can be made from just about any material as
long as it's pretty stable. You can even make an ugly
but very functional one from MDF. You can see a
picture here. (scroll down to about middle of page)
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/store/backissue.asp?issuedate=8/1/2003

The trick with these is to secure it with one screw
where it can pivot and then temporarily with another
screw that you can remove, or a clamp. This allows you
to check your board for true. The way you do this, cut
your two 45-degree miters with a saw, then using your
board, true up the joint on both pieces. Put them
together and check for square. If it's not square,
determine where the miter is off, try rotating the
angled rest to where it should work, try truing up the
two pieces again, check for square. Once you find the
location where it's square, secure that sucker down
with several screws. If done right, this board should
last you for quite a while and stay true for years and
years. Unless you have the rare miter box and
perfectly set saw that cut perfect angles, Tom Price
owns one of these rare beasts*, any miter joint could
benefit from truing up on a good miter shooting board.

And while you're at it, might as well make a 90-degree
shooting board as well. These two along with a bench
hook are so easy to make and so increadibly useful. 
http://www.inthewoodshop.org/methods/wwc06.shtml

Andrew
Who has learned only a few things, but those few
things he does know. 

*http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?noframes;read=1129
and Tom's post
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?noframes;read=1199

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

> --- Clayton Carter  wrote:
> > 	I want to start out easy, doing everyone's favorite
> > beginner project, the picture frame.  
> 

Andrew Midkiff wrote:

> If you're going to do picture frames by hand, an
> invaluable tool will be the mitre shooting board. 
> 

> The trick with these is to secure it with one screw
> where it can pivot and then temporarily with another
> screw that you can remove, or a clamp. 

Another way is to cut the pieces as close to 45* as you can, clamp the
frame onto a piece of scrap board at exactly 90* and then run a
tenon/dovetail saw through the cut, avoiding buying/building a new toy . .
. err . . . tool.

I can add that there's a set of measured drawings here for a mitre board.
If/when I make this one, I'd make it a touch wider to give the stock more
room to seat on the ramp and therefore make it a bit more stable.

http://host65.ipowerweb.com/~traditi2/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107

Cheers,

Andrew

avoiding buying/building a new toy . .
. err . . . tool.

Now, Andrew, what kind of support is that...

John Quinn
Santa Rosa