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276680 Erik Levin 2022‑12‑07 Hide glue for Gerstner repair
As my stock of hide glue is depleted, and it has been more than a decade since I
bought any since I so rarely use it, I am open to suggestions: My Gerstner No 55
(machinist case, circa 1923, six drawer with no till on top, hence case, not
chest) is in need of regluing the corner joints. I am not doing a full
restoration, though the felt will be replaced in a couple drawers, and I may re-
leather the handle at some point, but a couple corners are open, and one side
panel has opened at a joint, so repair is called for. I *think* it is oak.

Any suggestions for a hide glue source? Is the Gerstner official "whew" glue
worth while? My preference it to work it into the joints and clamp, rather than
fully disassemble, as the drawers are factory fit to the case or chest, and it
is a user.

It will be going into my new garage- the old one finally collapsed- which will
not be climate controlled, but is on a slab with vapour barrier, and will be
insulated and vapour barrier all around (New Jersey), which leads to the next
question: Any suggestions as to how to protect it? I am maybe the third or
fourth owner, and the sheer quantity of oil and grease when I go it a good while
back necessitated spirits and putty knife. It no longer stains a finger when
touched, but refinishing to original isn't going to happen.

(this is the oldest I have, and,honestly, the best overall, as the drawers are
all original, fit and slide well, and it has had no prior repairs to worry
about, so I want to not bodge it. A while ago, I did use shellac to bond a
filler into a stripped screw hole and re-drilled it, though. The one I picked up
a couple years ago was a mismatched, previously repaired crudely mess, so I had
no compunction using PVA under the leatherette and epoxy to refit the corner
braces where the screw holes were sripped)


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address(es) may not match the originating address
276681 Dennis Heyza <michigaloot@c...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
Erik,

I normally use hide glue for my projects, but appreciate the somewhat PITA
aspect of it. I tried Old Brown Glue for my last one and was really pleased with
it. Keep in the fridge, set the bottle in a container of (our setting) hottest
tap water for 15-20 minutes, and use. It’s very obvious when it's ready to use,
no mess (squeeze on and spread), and the remainder can be put right back in the
fridge.

I purchased mine direct from Patrick Edwards (downside is shipping cost) but
it's available from Woodcraft and others. One thing I really like is the 'use
by' date on the bottle. No trying to decipher lot numbers to figure out how much
life is left in it.

Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools@g...  On Behalf Of Erik Levin via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2022 8:07 PM
To: Oldtoolslist 
Subject: [oldtools] Hide glue for Gerstner repair

As my stock of hide glue is depleted, and it has been more than a decade since I
bought any since I so rarely use it, I am open to suggestions: My Gerstner No 55
(machinist case, circa 1923, six drawer with no till on top, hence case, not
chest) is in need of regluing the corner joints. I am not doing a full
restoration, though the felt will be replaced in a couple drawers, and I may re-
leather the handle at some point, but a couple corners are open, and one side
panel has opened at a joint, so repair is called for. I *think* it is oak.

Any suggestions for a hide glue source? Is the Gerstner official "whew" glue
worth while? My preference it to work it into the joints and clamp, rather than
fully disassemble, as the drawers are factory fit to the case or chest, and it
is a user.

It will be going into my new garage- the old one finally collapsed- which will
not be climate controlled, but is on a slab with vapour barrier, and will be
insulated and vapour barrier all around (New Jersey), which leads to the next
question: Any suggestions as to how to protect it? I am maybe the third or
fourth owner, and the sheer quantity of oil and grease when I go it a good while
back necessitated spirits and putty knife. It no longer stains a finger when
touched, but refinishing to original isn't going to happen.

(this is the oldest I have, and,honestly, the best overall, as the drawers are
all original, fit and slide well, and it has had no prior repairs to worry
about, so I want to not bodge it. A while ago, I did use shellac to bond a
filler into a stripped screw hole and re-drilled it, though. The one I picked up
a couple years ago was a mismatched, previously repaired crudely mess, so I had
no compunction using PVA under the leatherette and epoxy to refit the corner
braces where the screw holes were sripped)


*** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply
address(es) may not match the originating address
276686 Chris Wolf <hframe79001@g...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
I'll second the "Old Brown Glue" recommendation. I've used it only once, 
but thought it worked great. My only experience with hide glue in a glue 
pot was in a class from Roy Underhill, and I was not inspired to go 
through the fuss with it again. Downside for the Old Brown was the 
expense, especially because I used no more than a quarter of the (small) 
bottle and then didn't get back to it before it went bad.

--Chris

Check out H-frame, the site for vintage Black & Decker Workmates
<https://h-frame.weebly.com/>
276688 Mark van Roojen <mvr1@e...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
"Any suggestions for a hide glue source? Is the Gerstner official "whew" glue
worth while? My preference it to work it into the joints and clamp, rather than
fully disassemble, as the drawers are factory fit to the case or chest, and it
is a user."

When I redid the felt in one of mine I just used the Franklin bottled hide glue.
I also sometimes use a fish based glue similar to hide glue that I get from
Stewart McDonald.  My reaction to the general issue is that you should use
something you are used to and comfortable with.  Also one that can be
disassembled with heat and moisture if need be. If you are working it into the
joints I wonder if the liquid glue is better for that since it won't set before
you have it fully worked into the joint.  But I would try not to overthink it.
I think that almost anything you use will work for a good repair that will last
in your new garage in New Jersey.
276689 the_tinker <tinker@z...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
So I just spoke to my friend who is a big deal pipe organ builder and
restorer. I said “what’s up with hide glue?” Well after listening him go
off for ten minutes I found out it is getting real scarce. Organ
builders supply houses have some stock but are saving it for their
customers. Seems a big plant in Louisville closed when the swine packers
got shutdown.

Anyway he said a lot of builders are switching back to fish glue. He
said it’s a switch back to fish glue because that’s what they used 300
years ago. Interesting.

https://journeymansjournel.wordpress.com/2017/05/20/all-about-fish-glue-and-
hide-glue/
276690 Phil E. <pedgerton66@g...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
Tom Johnson, excellent furniture repairer and refinisher, who is on
Youtube, recommends "Old Brown Glue". It is a brand of premixed stabilized
hide glue. He usually heats it up some before using. He uses a syringe to
apply it to splits and cracks as well as to joints.The glue can be found in
several woodworking catalogues.

I haven't used it myself yet but plan to when next I need its properties. I
also heard mixed hide glue can be stored in the fridge to prolong its life.

 Phil E.
276691 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
GG's

To my mind, the single most important property needed in glue used to repair
wooden tool chests and tool cases is NON-CORROSIVITY.  Most plastics and glues
outgas or exude substances harmful to steel.

( Go ahead, change my mind! )

I'm not inclined to use anything except the most traditional hide glue, sans any
additives or preservatives.

"Plus One" on the necessity of reversibility.

John Ruth
Metuchen NJ
Let's just say that if it smells like vinegar, it likely contains acetic acid.
Etc.
276692 the_tinker <tinker@z...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
My understanding is that hide glue never goes bad (as in loses effectiveness).
It will get moldy. Then it stinks to high heaven. Refrigeration stops mold
growth.

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools@g... [mailto:oldtools@g...] On Behalf Of Phil E.
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 10:52 AM
To: oldtoolslist
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Hide glue for Gerstner repair

Tom Johnson, excellent furniture repairer and refinisher, who is on
Youtube, recommends "Old Brown Glue". It is a brand of premixed stabilized
hide glue. He usually heats it up some before using. He uses a syringe to
apply it to splits and cracks as well as to joints.The glue can be found in
several woodworking catalogues.

I haven't used it myself yet but plan to when next I need its properties. I
also heard mixed hide glue can be stored in the fridge to prolong its life.

 Phil E.
276693 Bill Webber 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
Hey Eric,

I have a small envelope labeled 'ground animal hide glue' left over for 
many years from my piano restoration days.  Just say the word and I'll 
put it in the mail for you.

Bill W.
Charlottesville, VA
276694 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
I'll 3rd the Old Brown Glue recommendation. For convenience, it is really
hard to beat.  I tried it at the suggestion of Joe Parker years back and
haven't touched my Tight Bond II since. People say it expires relatively
quickly but I've used stuff past the suggested due date with absolutely no
problems.  I purchase only the small bottles and considering I lose so much
to "burping" when I return the glue to the upright position (I never learn)
it covers quite a few projects.

-Paul, heading north
276695 Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
I just bought a small bottle of Old Brown Glue from Lee Valley and it went
straight into the beer fridge in my shop. Planning to use it this winter
for my first attempt at making a chair. Glad to hear so many positive
reviews.

--Brian
276696 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
Have a look at this option: 
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/supplies/adhesives/glue/20019-high-
tack-fish-glue?item=56K6000
I like the long open time of this product.

Note the link to 'Specifications' for a handy glue comparison chart.

fwiw
Don


On 2022-12-07 8:00 a.m., Mark van Roojen wrote:
> "Any suggestions for a hide glue source? Is the Gerstner official "whew" glue
worth while? My preference it to work it into the joints and clamp, rather than
fully disassemble, as the drawers are factory fit to the case or chest, and it
is a user."
>
> When I redid the felt in one of mine I just used the Franklin bottled hide
glue.  I also sometimes use a fish based glue similar to hide glue that I get
from Stewart McDonald.  My reaction to the general issue is that you should use
something you are used to and comfortable with.  Also one that can be
disassembled with heat and moisture if need be. If you are working it into the
joints I wonder if the liquid glue is better for that since it won't set before
you have it fully worked into the joint.  But I would try not to overthink it.
I think that almost anything you use will work for a good repair that will last
in your new garage in New Jersey.
>
>
> 
>
>

-- 

Chuck the king - DS

It's a Humpty Dumpty world - Ry Cooder
276697 Troy Livingston <horologist@w...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
Put me down as another vote for Old Brown Glue (OBG) especially when 
doing repairs on antiques. I have used it for years and am quite pleased 
with it. I put the new the bottle straight into the fridge and cut out 
chunks as required. Most of the stuff I glue is small so I don't 
normally heat the entire bottle when using it. Instead I break off 
chunks (very rubbery when chilled) and place them on a piece of plastic 
wrap pressed over the surface of hot water in a coffee mug, then apply 
with a small brush.

I have also been experimenting with Columbia Organ Works high tack fish 
glue.
<https://www.columbiaorgan.com/columbia-leather-home/products/adhesives/>

Then sent me a sample when I ordered some leather and it has the 
properties of hide glue I like best without the need for refrigeration 
and heating. So far I haven't tried it on anything seriously structural 
but have had great luck with veneer patches and small repairs.

Troy
276698 Mark 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
I have the large bottle of Old Brown Glue that is 80% full with an expiration
date of May 2020.

I have always kept it in the frig. 

I have been using it within the last 5 months for various tasks and it has
appeared to be fine.

 But this email thread has me seriously worried. Maybe I’m wrong to think that
if it is acting like hide glue it’s still fine to use. The FAQ’s on the Old
Brown Glue don’t tell me how far refrigerated glue in the bottle will work
beyond the expiration date.

I’m bracing myself today to tossing it. 

Thoughts and Comments?

Mark in St Paul MN
276699 Kirk Eppler 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
I have a bottle of the Old Brown Glue, used it on a plane repair and a
piece of vintage furniture.  still in the fridge, and just like food, I
don't plan on tossing it at the expiration date. ;)

I have a leatherette Gerstner to restore and bought the Whew glue to do
that job, so no clue as to how well it will work.  More in 3 or 4 more
years when I finally start.

I also 2nd Mr Ruth on the off gassing, I thrashed a few files making a file
holder with Titebond.

Kirk in Half Moon Bay, CA, nothing witty to report will listening to people
talk about employee ratings.

On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 5:06 PM Erik Levin via groups.io  wrote:

> As my stock of hide glue is depleted, and it has been more than a decade
> since I bought any since I so rarely use it, I am open to suggestions: My
> Gerstner No 55 (machinist case, circa 1923, six drawer with no till on top,
> hence case, not chest) is in need of regluing the corner joints. I am not
> doing a full restoration, though the felt will be replaced in a couple
> drawers, and I may re-leather the handle at some point, but a couple
> corners are open, and one side panel has opened at a joint, so repair is
> called for. I *think* it is oak.
>
> Any suggestions for a hide glue source? Is the Gerstner official "whew"
> glue worth while? My preference it to work it into the joints and clamp,
> rather than fully disassemble, as the drawers are factory fit to the case
> or chest, and it is a user.
>
>


-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA 
276700 Thomas Conroy 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
Hi, Erik,
I wonder if you could get any leverage out of injecting a bit of water into the
joints, letting it sit for just a little time to let the old glue swell, then
hitting it with a hot air gun to reactivate the original glue, then clamp it?
In theory it ought to work; and if it doesn't I don't see that it would hurt
anything, you'd be no worse off than you are now. In theory.
"In theory" and a dime won't even buy you a beer anymore.
I love theory. And I'm good at it.
Tom Conroy
276701 Troy Livingston <horologist@w...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
Mark,

I've got you beat, my old bottle says April 2018.
I haven't used it for a while and would certainly test it before using it.
Glue some scraps and break apart to see if the glue fails.

If you are worried about the strength and have a critical joint to glue
then buy a new bottle. But save the old for less structural applications.

I try to keep a fresh "full" strength bottle and an expired one. When I
get a new bottle the former fresh one gets downgraded for the less
critical applications and the oldest one goes in the trash.

Troy
276702 Erik Levin 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
Looks like there is a lot of support for Old Brown Glue. It certainly will be an
easier option than full disassembly, which I likely would need to do if I went
to traditional hide glue, while keeping the main benefits.

FWIW: going with what I am comfortable with here would presume I have more
experience with hide and fish glues than I do. My go to has been modern
adhesives for things that don't need reversibility or historical correctness.
This case (pun intended) deserves both.

Thank you all for the input. I might try Tom's water-and-warm suggestion, first.
No clue if it will work, sorta work, or not work, but might be interesting to
find out.

*** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply
address(es) may not match the originating address
276703 Dennis Heyza <michigaloot@c...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
Since it's my first time using it, I won't venture a guess as to how far after
the 'best by' date you can go, but...

1. I suspect Mr. Edwards is VERY conservative regarding the date.
2. It's probably more useful in a retail environment to ensure it hasn't been on
the shelf for five years.
3. The label clearly states it will last longer if refrigerated.



-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools@g...  On Behalf Of Mark via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 1:55 PM
To: Troy Livingston 
Cc: enl_public@y...; Oldtoolslist 
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Hide glue for Gerstner repair

I have the large bottle of Old Brown Glue that is 80% full with an expiration
date of May 2020.

I have always kept it in the frig. 

I have been using it within the last 5 months for various tasks and it has
appeared to be fine.

 But this email thread has me seriously worried. Maybe I’m wrong to think that
if it is acting like hide glue it’s still fine to use. The FAQ’s on the Old
Brown Glue don’t tell me how far refrigerated glue in the bottle will work
beyond the expiration date.

I’m bracing myself today to tossing it. 

Thoughts and Comments?
276704 scottg <scottg@s...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
Hyde glue, liquid hyde glue, brown glue, super glue, Gorilla glue, 
Titebond 111 or any of the other modern waterproof poly glues.
   They are all just too expensive for me.
  Use it once and throw the bottle away. Ouch

I like superglue from the dollar store because it comes in tiny sealed 
tubes that are always fresh and hot.
(I also have some Gorilla glue in their own tiny tubes but its very costly)

   But my number one, for nearly all my life
  Good ol Elmers yellow wood glue.
  Original formula.
Its cheap, lasts nearly forever on the shelf and never fails.
If I really have to, enough steam will soften it should I need to take 
something apart.

   For the toolbox I would either apply a little Elmers and blow it in 
with a soda straw
   or else cut it a bit with water and use a syringe.
   I got a couple of syringes with long thin curved plastic spouts from 
the woodworking world and love them.
   I have since found out they are really dental syringes and come 10 in 
a bag for very very little.

If you want to use it, 5 minute epoxy is actually a better wood glue 
than overnight epoxy. The 5 minute is a little more flexible as wood is 
flexible.
  yours scott


-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
276705 Thomas Conroy 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
The tinker wrote:
 
"My understanding is that hide glue never goes bad (as in loses effectiveness).
It will get moldy. Then it stinks to high heaven. Refrigeration stops mold
growth."
It does very definitely go bad, very bad indeed for some uses, though in other
uses you might not notice the problems.
Hot glue comes in a range of "bloom value," made by taking sequential boilings
of hides and bones etc. and then blending them to get the desired properties.
Very high-bloom glue (close to pure gelatine) has an extremely short open time
but very great strength and a clear color; it absorbs a lot of water and so can
be brushed on in a very thin layer---not always a good thing. As glue is kept
hot and reheated, the molecules break down into shorter ones and the bloom of
the glue drops. The glue becomes weaker and more brittle, much more viscous so
you can't brush on a thin layer, it darkens very noticeably, and it becomes
extremely acid. If you let the glue actually boil, if you even let it heat above
140 degrees or so, everything speeds up.

That's apart from the mold growth, which will accelerate the breakdown of the
molecules at well as leaving the glue full of the mold (the bit you can brush
off the surface is not the body of the mold, it is just the reproductive
organs.) Refrigerating glue overnight will slow down mold, about as effectively
as it will slow down mold on jello (which is essentially what hot glue is). But
refrigeration won't remove established (invisible) mold from the depths of the
glue, and it won't kill it. Remelting the glue every day will generally allow
you to keep it indefinitely, at the cost of having your batch go down steadily
in quality with each reheating.

Research at the Government Printing Office in the 1920s established "best
practice" guidelines of having each binder mix up entirely fresh glue at the
beginning of the week, then discarding anything left over on Friday and mixing
an entirely fresh batch next Monday. This replaced the old practice of having
each binder dip his glue from an enormous whole-shop kettle, which was never
cleaned or entirely emptied---fresh glue was added from time to time to top it
up. The clean-each-week method improved economy as well as quality, probably by
reducing the thickness of the glue layer (imagine brushing on root beer as
opposed to honey).

The actual bloom value that is best for glue varies according to the job you are
doing. For hand binding and conservation it is best very high, say 400 or even
more. Machine binding, quite a bit less. For general woodworking it is maybe in
the 140-250 range. For violinmaking the preference is very short-moleculed, low-
bloom "rabbit skin glue" (nothing to do with happy hoppy bunnies, just a name)
of, IIRC, under 100, for precisely the characteristics that are not wanted in
other uses: by using a weak, brittle glue you make it easier and safer to
disassemble an instrument without injuring the wood. Artists' suppliers sizing
and gessoing canvas for oils also prefer rabbit skin glue, though I have never
been able to figure out just why.
Hot glue is inconvenient, cranky, and unforgiving in many ways; in others, it is
very forgiving indeed, and very gratifying to use. It is perhaps the best all-
around adhesive for serious furniture making, but it requires a degree of
devotion to get the best out of it. And, contrary to advertising claims, Old
Brown Glue is not hot hide glue, any more than jello is. The working properties
and manner of use are different. This is because while the materials and many
properties are the same, the method of manufacture is different in many details.
Probably the aging properties are different. That is not to say that OBG is a
bad adhesive; I haven't used it but it sounds perfect for many uses. But it is
different, and clearly demands different treatment.
Tom ConroyBerkeley
276706 Stephen Rosenthal <srosenthal26@g...> 2022‑12‑07 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
I’m kinda with Scott, except most of my glue experience is with Titebond I & III
(although I do have an 8 ounce bottle of Elmer’s Carpenters Glue that is very
old) and very limited with hide glue. I go through a lot more Titebond III but
I’ve had a gallon jug of Titebond I for at least 15 years and it’s still good as
new. The gallon jug resides in a cool dark corner of a closet and I put whatever
I need for a project in a small jar. Stored properly, I’m of the opinion that
the whole expiration date thing is nothing more than a marketing ploy.

Stephen 
San Francisco
276707 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2022‑12‑08 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
Tom:

Bravo on a well-written post by a well-informed craftsman !

John Ruth
> On Dec 7, 2022, at 3:41 PM, Thomas Conroy via groups.io
 wrote:
> 
> The tinker wrote:
> 
> "My understanding is that hide glue never goes bad (as in loses
effectiveness). It will get moldy. Then it stinks to high heaven. Refrigeration
stops mold growth."
> It does very definitely go bad, very bad indeed for some uses, though in other
uses you might not notice the problems.
> Hot glue comes in a range of "bloom value," made by taking sequential boilings
of hides and bones etc. and then blending them to get the desired properties.
Very high-bloom glue (close to pure gelatine) has an extremely short open time
but very great strength and a clear color; it absorbs a lot of water and so can
be brushed on in a very thin layer---not always a good thing. As glue is kept
hot and reheated, the molecules break down into shorter ones and the bloom of
the glue drops. The glue becomes weaker and more brittle, much more viscous so
you can't brush on a thin layer, it darkens very noticeably, and it becomes
extremely acid. If you let the glue actually boil, if you even let it heat above
140 degrees or so, everything speeds up.
> 
> That's apart from the mold growth, which will accelerate the breakdown of the
molecules at well as leaving the glue full of the mold (the bit you can brush
off the surface is not the body of the mold, it is just the reproductive
organs.) Refrigerating glue overnight will slow down mold, about as effectively
as it will slow down mold on jello (which is essentially what hot glue is). But
refrigeration won't remove established (invisible) mold from the depths of the
glue, and it won't kill it. Remelting the glue every day will generally allow
you to keep it indefinitely, at the cost of having your batch go down steadily
in quality with each reheating.
> 
> Research at the Government Printing Office in the 1920s established "best
practice" guidelines of having each binder mix up entirely fresh glue at the
beginning of the week, then discarding anything left over on Friday and mixing
an entirely fresh batch next Monday. This replaced the old practice of having
each binder dip his glue from an enormous whole-shop kettle, which was never
cleaned or entirely emptied---fresh glue was added from time to time to top it
up. The clean-each-week method improved economy as well as quality, probably by
reducing the thickness of the glue layer (imagine brushing on root beer as
opposed to honey).
> 
> The actual bloom value that is best for glue varies according to the job you
are doing. For hand binding and conservation it is best very high, say 400 or
even more. Machine binding, quite a bit less. For general woodworking it is
maybe in the 140-250 range. For violinmaking the preference is very short-
moleculed, low-bloom "rabbit skin glue" (nothing to do with happy hoppy bunnies,
just a name) of, IIRC, under 100, for precisely the characteristics that are not
wanted in other uses: by using a weak, brittle glue you make it easier and safer
to disassemble an instrument without injuring the wood. Artists' suppliers
sizing and gessoing canvas for oils also prefer rabbit skin glue, though I have
never been able to figure out just why.
> Hot glue is inconvenient, cranky, and unforgiving in many ways; in others, it
is very forgiving indeed, and very gratifying to use. It is perhaps the best
all-around adhesive for serious furniture making, but it requires a degree of
devotion to get the best out of it. And, contrary to advertising claims, Old
Brown Glue is not hot hide glue, any more than jello is. The working properties
and manner of use are different. This is because while the materials and many
properties are the same, the method of manufacture is different in many details.
Probably the aging properties are different. That is not to say that OBG is a
bad adhesive; I haven't used it but it sounds perfect for many uses. But it is
different, and clearly demands different treatment.
> Tom ConroyBerkeley
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
276708 the_tinker <tinker@z...> 2022‑12‑08 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
I'll say. This old dog learned a thing or two or three.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Ruth [mailto:johnrruth@h...] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 8:35 PM
To: booktoolcutter@y...
Cc: tinker@z...; Tools Old
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Hide glue for Gerstner repair

Tom:

Bravo on a well-written post by a well-informed craftsman !

John Ruth
276709 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2022‑12‑08 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
The tinker wrote: "My understanding is that hide glue never goes bad
(as in loses effectiveness). It will get moldy. Then it stinks to high
heaven. Refrigeration stops mold growth."
It does very definitely go bad, very bad indeed for some uses, though in
other uses you might not notice the problems." 

Got no idea how anyone manages to gets mold growth and high heaven stink
from liquid hide glue.  I've never had that problem nor heard of it.  I
bought a case of Franklin liquid hide glue 30 years ago or so.  I have
two partial bottles left.  No mold, no stink.  Still works (and smells)
exactly the same as it did when new.  I've never refrigerated it, just
kept it in whatever climate is inside my shop. 

Mike in Woodland
276710 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2022‑12‑08 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
John Ruth wrote: "And, contrary to advertising claims, Old Brown Glue is
not hot hide glue" 

Correct, John.  Both Franklin and Old Brown Glue are buhl work glues,
designed to hold disparate materials to wood.  Buhl work glues retain
enough plasticity to keep stone, metal, bone and shell from popping out
from the expansion and contraction of wood.  These two add urea (that's
urine) to hide glue, in the English tradition.  The French added garlic
oil.  Think twice about licking your fingers...  But they will, as
designed, hold metal to wood. 

I grew up with hot hide glue.  My grandfather built custom picture
frames and hot glue is what we used.  Initially, my job was to go into
the shop and prepare the glue, heating it, adding a bit of water and/or
glue beads to the electric glue pot.  Get it ready for him to use. 
Maybe that's why I don't find it inconvenient.  Some add a bit of salt
to the mixture, though I never have.  Now I have a couple of double
boiler glue pots, one copper, the other an old cast iron pot. 

Both forms are reversible.  Both adhere to previous hide glues as well,
which is a real advantage in repairs to old furniture. 

Mike in Woodland
276711 Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> 2022‑12‑08 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
I always enjoy the threads about Hide glue.  I used a double pot - a small cast
iron one that needs re-tinning on the inside (Suggestions, anyone?)  it holds
maybe a cup full at a time, and goes on an electric hot plate when in use. I
have a larger one, but no sooner had I come across it than I spoted an electric
glue pot in an auction, and got hold of that.  Plenty big enough for anything I
might do.

I like HHG because it is so versatile and friendly.  In restoration work, as
others have said, its ability to be undone with heat and water or alcohol is
magic.  Lifting a veneer becomes possible with an old thin table knife blade and
alcohol squirted into the joint, and time.  The surface is pretty undamaged
ready to go back down, or be re-used.  A blistered veneer may be rescued with a
hot iron applied over some brown paper. Heat to plasticise the glue - then a
weight or clamp to keep it flat until cold.

And cleaning up is civilised.  Always a blessing.  Not like that polyurethane
modern stuff that stays on your fingers for a good half week.


Back to the Gerstner though.  My tuppence - its been said - start with a hot
iron - if it’s hide glue, it may reliquefy and a cold cramp ors omething may
work.  After that, if it needs more - well - you’ve already heard everything I’d
suggest, so I’ll shut up now.


Enjoy

Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot
on the North Sea coast, where we had the first real snowfall today.  (And for
those of you who have real snow - I’ll add that it had all melted by noon.
That’s winter done then.  Roll on the solstice and the feasting of Mithras.


 

> On 8 Dec 2022, at 17:30, Michael Blair  wrote:
> 
> John Ruth wrote: "And, contrary to advertising claims, Old Brown Glue is
> not hot hide glue" 
> 
> Correct, John.  Both Franklin and Old Brown Glue are buhl work glues,
> designed to hold disparate materials to wood.  Buhl work glues retain
> enough plasticity to keep stone, metal, bone and shell from popping out
> from the expansion and contraction of wood.  These two add urea (that's
> urine) to hide glue, in the English tradition.  The French added garlic
> oil.  Think twice about licking your fingers...  But they will, as
> designed, hold metal to wood. 
> 
> I grew up with hot hide glue.  My grandfather built custom picture
> frames and hot glue is what we used.  Initially, my job was to go into
> the shop and prepare the glue, heating it, adding a bit of water and/or
> glue beads to the electric glue pot.  Get it ready for him to use. 
> Maybe that's why I don't find it inconvenient.  Some add a bit of salt
> to the mixture, though I never have.  Now I have a couple of double
> boiler glue pots, one copper, the other an old cast iron pot. 
> 
> Both forms are reversible.  Both adhere to previous hide glues as well,
> which is a real advantage in repairs to old furniture. 
> 
> Mike in Woodland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300
276712 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2022‑12‑08 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
Mike:

You've given me credit for something that was actually written by the inimitable
Tom Conroy:

John Ruth wrote: "And, contrary to advertising claims, Old Brown Glue is not hot
hide glue"

( I concur with Tom, of course.)

Your post vis-a-vis also very informative with respect to Buhl glues.

My question is: Is it as safe for steels as real hide glue?  Many glues will
corrode various metals.

John Ruth
Metuchen, NJ
276716 gtgrouch@r... 2022‑12‑09 Re: Hide glue for Gerstner repair
A quick summary on re-tinning can be found here. 

https://www.instructables.com/DIY-Hand-Wiped-Tinning-of-Old-Copper-PotsPans-
Inst/

I get my supplies from Rotometals. I don't know if they ship overseas.
I've used their flux and I've purchased tin, pewter, and low temp
melting alloys from them I would gladly do business again. 

Gary Katsanis
Albion, New York USA

	-----------------------------------------From: "Richard Wilson" 
To: "Michael Blair"
Cc: "John Ruth", "Tools Old"
Sent: Thursday December 8 2022 2:05:16PM
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Hide glue for Gerstner repair

 I always enjoy the threads about Hide glue. I used a double pot - a
small cast iron one that needs re-tinning on the inside (Suggestions,
anyone?) it holds maybe a cup full at a time, and goes on an electric
hot plate when in use. I have a larger one, but no sooner had I come
across it than I spoted an electric glue pot in an auction, and got
hold of that. Plenty big enough for anything I might do.

 I like HHG because it is so versatile and friendly. In restoration
work, as others have said, its ability to be undone with heat and
water or alcohol is magic. Lifting a veneer becomes possible with an
old thin table knife blade and alcohol squirted into the joint, and
time. The surface is pretty undamaged ready to go back down, or be
re-used. A blistered veneer may be rescued with a hot iron applied
over some brown paper. Heat to plasticise the glue - then a weight or
clamp to keep it flat until cold.

 And cleaning up is civilised. Always a blessing. Not like that
polyurethane modern stuff that stays on your fingers for a good half
week.

 Back to the Gerstner though. My tuppence - its been said - start with
a hot iron - if it’s hide glue, it may reliquefy and a cold cramp
ors omething may work. After that, if it needs more - well - you’ve
already heard everything I’d suggest, so I’ll shut up now.

 Enjoy

 Richard Wilson
 Yorkshireman Galoot
 on the North Sea coast, where we had the first real snowfall today.
(And for those of you who have real snow - I’ll add that it had all
melted by noon. That’s winter done then. Roll on the solstice and
the feasting of Mithras.

 > On 8 Dec 2022, at 17:30, Michael Blair  wrote:
 >
 > John Ruth wrote: "And, contrary to advertising claims, Old Brown
Glue is
 > not hot hide glue"
 >
 > Correct, John. Both Franklin and Old Brown Glue are buhl work
glues,
 > designed to hold disparate materials to wood. Buhl work glues
retain
 > enough plasticity to keep stone, metal, bone and shell from popping
out
 > from the expansion and contraction of wood. These two add urea
(that's
 > urine) to hide glue, in the English tradition. The French added
garlic
 > oil. Think twice about licking your fingers... But they will, as
 > designed, hold metal to wood.
 >
 > I grew up with hot hide glue. My grandfather built custom picture
 > frames and hot glue is what we used. Initially, my job was to go
into
 > the shop and prepare the glue, heating it, adding a bit of water
and/or
 > glue beads to the electric glue pot. Get it ready for him to use.
 > Maybe that's why I don't find it inconvenient. Some add a bit of
salt
 > to the mixture, though I never have. Now I have a couple of double
 > boiler glue pots, one copper, the other an old cast iron pot.
 >
 > Both forms are reversible. Both adhere to previous hide glues as
well,
 > which is a real advantage in repairs to old furniture.
 >
 > Mike in Woodland
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >

 --
 Yorkshireman Galoot
 in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
 IT #300

 



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