OldTools Archive

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276336 the_tinker <tinker@z...> 2022‑09‑18 Question on working green wood
For the collective wisdom of the list (Ok, mostly Scott).

Is there a fundamental difference between working a true sapling versus 
a fresh new growth branch from an old tree?

I need to split a 1-1/4" diameter green sapling down about 18" and then 
loop the split end back on itself in a tight loop.

Think I will saw into the stick half way and split the waste away. May 
still need to boil it to get as tight a loop as I want,

Thinking hickory but will gladly entertain suggestions.

Thanks,

-JP
276337 Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> 2022‑09‑18 Re: Question on working green wood
JP is doing some bodging…

> I need to split a 1-1/4" diameter green sapling down about 18" and then loop
the split end back on itself in a tight loop.
> 
> Think I will saw into the stick half way and split the waste away. May still
need to boil it to get as tight a loop as I want,
> 
> Thinking hickory but will gladly entertain suggestions.



I’m not quite understanding whether you want to bend a half round stick into a
circle, or split a full round and bend only the 18 inches of a half round into a
circle.  Nor whether this is wanted with the bark side on the inside or outside
of the bend.


But as to the question - No, not much difference between a sapling or a sapling
size branch, such as would come out of a coppice.  I can’t speak to hickory (It
doesn’t grow on trees around here)  but this seems very do-able in something
like hazel, or with equipment and a shop and steaming, in beech.  Lots of
beechwood bent chairs around that are about these kind of dimensions.

A couple of days ago I was looking at some very chunky oak that must have been
steam bent back in the 19th century.  Pugin designed woodwork, back in the day
when timber DID grow on trees, and the best there was is what went into his
furniture.


Good wishes to all

Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman galoot, back from a visit to God’s country.  


> On 18 Sep 2022, at 16:07, the_tinker  wrote:
> 
> For the collective wisdom of the list (Ok, mostly Scott).
> 
> Is there a fundamental difference between working a true sapling versus a
fresh new growth branch from an old tree?
> 
> I need to split a 1-1/4" diameter green sapling down about 18" and then loop
the split end back on itself in a tight loop.
> 
> Think I will saw into the stick half way and split the waste away. May still
need to boil it to get as tight a loop as I want,
> 
> Thinking hickory but will gladly entertain suggestions.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -JP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300
276338 Charlie Driggs 2022‑09‑18 Re: Question on working green wood
> On Sep 18, 2022, at 11:07 AM, the_tinker  wrote:
> 
> Is there a fundamental difference between working a true sapling versus a
fresh new growth branch from an old tree?

The primary difference in structure between a vertical sapling and a new growth
lateral branch off of a (essentially) vertical trunk is going to be found in the
cross-section of the new growth ‘branch' - the bottom side of the new lateral
branches are going to grow more wood than the top side.  The tree does this to
specifically to support the branch in countering the effects of gravity.  For
the first year of growth on the lateral branch, the extra growth isn’t going to
be all that noticeable until the branch extends itself out far enough to start
pointing downward because of its own weight.  The branch will respond by adding
wood on the bottom side of itself to counter the effect of gravity.  This
natural feature was the inspiration for using a variable thickness in designing
cantilever supports for man-made structures.

Just about everything else in the composition of the two is going to be the same
in the earliest years of its existence.  For a tree that sends up suckers from
its roots, the suckers and the main trunk will both sprout smaller lateral
branches to support leaf growth, both will have vessels to move sap, etc.  The
distance between branching nodes might be different for lateral shoots than for
vertical saplings with some species if the tree canopy denies the sapling as
much sunlight at lower elevations than the tree gets higher up the trunk.

Leaves on either form of branch that receive greater light than the leaves on
other branches will tend to grow faster towards the source of sunlight and their
branch will also grow more.  A book came out last year called “The Hidden Life
of Trees”, written by a researcher who had studied trees and their colonization
practices over 3-4 decades.  The book shows that trees are more complicated life
forms than most of us humans realize.

Charlie Driggs
276339 gtgrouch@r... 2022‑09‑18 Re: Question on working green wood
I don't know if you need both bits when you saw it. 

If not, I would consider working it down with a drawknife. It will be
quick on green wood, and it will leave a smooth surface, which is less
likely to split when you bend it. 

YMMV, Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA

	-----------------------------------------From: "Richard Wilson" 
To: "the_tinker"
Cc: "porch"
Sent: Sunday September 18 2022 12:37:56PM
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Question on working green wood

 JP is doing some bodging…

 > I need to split a 1-1/4" diameter green sapling down about 18" and
then loop the split end back on itself in a tight loop.
 >
 > Think I will saw into the stick half way and split the waste away.
May still need to boil it to get as tight a loop as I want,
 >
 > Thinking hickory but will gladly entertain suggestions.

 I’m not quite understanding whether you want to bend a half round
stick into a circle, or split a full round and bend only the 18 inches
of a half round into a circle. Nor whether this is wanted with the
bark side on the inside or outside of the bend.

 But as to the question - No, not much difference between a sapling or
a sapling size branch, such as would come out of a coppice. I can’t
speak to hickory (It doesn’t grow on trees around here) but this
seems very do-able in something like hazel, or with equipment and a
shop and steaming, in beech. Lots of beechwood bent chairs around that
are about these kind of dimensions.

 A couple of days ago I was looking at some very chunky oak that must
have been steam bent back in the 19th century. Pugin designed
woodwork, back in the day when timber DID grow on trees, and the best
there was is what went into his furniture.

 Good wishes to all

 Richard Wilson
 Yorkshireman galoot, back from a visit to God’s country.

 > On 18 Sep 2022, at 16:07, the_tinker  wrote:
 >
 > For the collective wisdom of the list (Ok, mostly Scott).
 >
 > Is there a fundamental difference between working a true sapling
versus a fresh new growth branch from an old tree?
 >
 > I need to split a 1-1/4" diameter green sapling down about 18" and
then loop the split end back on itself in a tight loop.
 >
 > Think I will saw into the stick half way and split the waste away.
May still need to boil it to get as tight a loop as I want,
 >
 > Thinking hickory but will gladly entertain suggestions.
 >
 > Thanks,
 >
 > -JP
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >

 --
 Yorkshireman Galoot
 in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
 IT #300

 



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276340 scottg <scottg@s...> 2022‑09‑18 Re: Question on working green wood
I think you forgot to mention why??
How tight a bend is tight?
A rug beater? Tennis racket? What?

  Given both choices I would go with a vertical sapling.
Limb wood tends to warp over time.
All wood is a crap shoot, but take any odds you can get.  hahahaha

   You will find it difficult to sever any dowel shaped piece of wood 
into 2 perfectly equal 1/2's, if that is what you meant.
Saws want to wander and so do splits. Better cut several blanks while 
you are out.
   Hickory does indeed bend. Depending on how tight a loop you are 
trying to make.
...................  Steaming the bejesus out of it and some kind of 
"cheater" up to several feet long to help bend it, a brace or cover or 
whatever you call it, to support the outside of the bend to reduce 
splitting as its being bent,
then placing it into a solid pre-prepared jig to hold it for at least a 
week.

  Even then, whatever bend you make will spring back once released, so 
you have to bend tighter than you want the finished project to be or 
have a prepared joint of some kind to snap it into.
yours, just another scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
276341 the_tinker <tinker@z...> 2022‑09‑18 Re: Question on working green wood
Scott,

I did. Didn't want to bore. Long story longer, just got back from a
three week trip through Nebraska, Wyoming and Montana (retirement is
wonderful) basically following the track of Red Cloud's War. Hit all the
battle sites and old forts or locations such as there is. Hay field
fight, Crazy women creek, Wagon box fight, Battle of Hundred-in-hands
(Fetterman massacre - since when does the loser get to name the
battle?). Any way being a long time student of the 100 years war as
fought here in the colonies (French and Indian War to my friends across
the pond). I have made bows, arrows, knives and tomahawks in Indian
style. This trip inspired me to make a plains Indian war club. I brought
a bucket full of suitable stones from the banks of the Yellowstone
river. So yes, after grooving the stone head I want to wrap the split
section bark out around the stone and bind with raw hide. I figure I
could get a really tight wrap going flat-to-flat. I will use only what
was available to a plains Indian. I'm going to use a chunk of iron
similar to a wagon wheel tire to try and chip the groove.

Have some good picture to work with from the museum at Cody. Interesting
fact, the war clubs got about 20 inches longer with the introduction of
the horse.

Later,

-John
276342 scottg <scottg@s...> 2022‑09‑18 Re: Question on working green wood
> Hey John
> OH crap boredom? If I worried about boring I would never post anything.
>  Unless you were intentionally posting a teaser, in which case, way to 
> go!!
>   Every guy on the porch is scratching their head wondering what in 
> hell you are up to. hahaahahahahah
>
> I haven't seen wood bent around a stone for a club.
> I have seen layers of heavy rawhide (shrinks violently as it dries.)
> I have seen "grown" war clubs, where a vertical slot is cut into a 
> growing stick and a stone pushed through.
>  Time and growth sets it, like, well like a rock.  lol
>
>   You would have to violently bend a stick and then force the stone 
> back in after it cures, to get much tension at all, I am afraid.
>    yours scott
>
>


-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
276343 Joe Jerkins <jerkinsjoe@g...> 2022‑09‑18 Re: Question on working green wood
John,

I have nothing of value to add about green woodworking, but your trip
really caught my eye.  I just finished reading Crazy House;The Strange man
of the Oglalas.  Please post pictures (in-progress and finished).

Ping me off line if interested and I'll send you the book.  It's well
written, engaging and sad.

Joe in rainy(!) San Francisco
276344 the_tinker <tinker@z...> 2022‑09‑18 Re: Question on working green wood
Scott,

Rawhide is the standard and I will go that route. Guess I was
overthinking this. Love the second option but since I'm 66 I don't think
I have the time ;-). Although I did plant a couple of walnut trees today
to replace a blown over poplar in the back of the property. I did think
of the old Greek proverb - "A society is great when old men plant trees
under whose shade they will never relax".

Guess there is some hope for us yet.

-JP
276345 Tony Seo 2022‑09‑18 Re: Question on working green wood
On 9/18/2022 11:07 AM, the_tinker wrote:
> For the collective wisdom of the list (Ok, mostly Scott).
>
> Is there a fundamental difference between working a true sapling
> versus a fresh new growth branch from an old tree?
>
> I need to split a 1-1/4" diameter green sapling down about 18" and
> then loop the split end back on itself in a tight loop.
>
> Think I will saw into the stick half way and split the waste away. May
> still need to boil it to get as tight a loop as I want,

I have made a few hoops for displaying beaver pelts, but I never split
one down.  We have a ton (literally) of new growth maple saplings
around, so I would just pick one that was about the diameter that I
wanted, and cut it down.    Tie it in a hoop and let it dry.   I thought
that I had a picture of that, but I can't find one right off.

I have also used those maple saplings for making primitive tent poles
and they are still going strong 15 plus years later.

Funny story about the beaver pelt.  I used to do a one day
leatherworking demo at the Lord Stirling 18th Century Festival in
Basking Ridge NJ.  And this was a family type event with lots of
"yuppie" families, like the one time when a young boy asked where the
deer hides that I had on display came from and his mother replied "They
come from animals that were cruelly killed for their skins" and her
husband chimed in "Yea, like those $200 dress shoes you wear!".  I just
smiled as they walked off.

Well one time, one of the yuppie mom types sees the beaver pelt I had
hanging up, asked what it was, and after I told her, she felt it and
asked "Are all beavers this soft?"   To which I answered with a smile,
"So are, some aren't."  She replied "Oh" and a couple of older gals who
were standing there as well started laughing hard (they got the joke),
but the yuppie mom still had no clue.

Oh yes.

Tony (running on fumes after back to back 4:00 AM flea market wake up
calls...)

--

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic
Old River Hard Goods
http://oldetoolshop.com/
276352 Bob Page 2022‑09‑20 Re: Obsolete thread sizes
I highly recommend buying taps and dies from Greg Ricketts at 'A Plane Life'.
Not only is he well versed on Stanley tools (and very nice guy), his tools are
all Made in the US and are top quality. The last time I bought a #12-20 tap from
Victor Machinery, it was sourced from an overseas company. I'm afraid to use it.

Just my two cents....

Bob Page
In da U.P. of Michigan




On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 11:44:19 AM EDT, Kevin Foley
 wrote:

12-20s plus all the weird Stanley taps and dies such as left-handed adjuster
hardware are available here:

https://aplanelife.us/products-for-sale

Kevin in Chantilly
276353 Kevin Foley <kevin.foley.135@g...> 2022‑09‑20 Re: Obsolete thread sizes
Off topic but I can recommend his japanning too.  He did a lot of research and
testing to perfect his formula.  It’s the real deal and it’s easy to work with.

Kevin
276354 Mark van Roojen <mvr1@e...> 2022‑09‑21 Re: Obsolete thread sizes
Well you all got me to spend some money on taps, gilsonite and 
shooting board parts at aPlaneLife this morning. Would have gotten a 
few dies as well, but I was running out of money and I can usually 
find those parts.

Thanks to the bunch of you!

Mark van Roojen
POB 83836
Lincoln, NE 68501-3836
(402) 438-3724  (h)
Webpage: www.mvr1.com

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