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275584 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2022‑05‑16 Wood ID help needed
Assembled Galootarati,

Some help if you please.  I've got a table that needs some repair work done
that will require some replacement pieces.  I'd like to use the same
species if possible but if that isn't in the cards I'd like a close match.
The top obviously has a glaze or stain of some sort which will be reapplied
when finished to match the rest of the piece.  The only hints I have is
that the table is probably 80-100 years old and possibly Italian in
origin.  Here are some pictures I hope will be helpful.  Any advice or
suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-mMc3Ws3/A
https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-LN25vGd/A

Paul, temporarily in LA
275587 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2022‑05‑16 Re: Wood ID help needed
There are a bunch of clues..... especially given the provenance and pictures.  I
believe the piece is NOT veneered.  Solid wood.

At first glance I thought Chechen.... a wood more used in veneering, but rarely
used as a solid wood.

It is Italian, maybe, but probably European..... indicates European wood.
Slightly to lots different than American lumber.

The pix shows a medium, light brown to gray wood.

The wood is quarter sawn.

The wood is open pore.

The object is 80 100 years old.  Built in the period of 1920-1940 maybe.

There is a knot showing..... really important

The object does not show signs of being waxed nor oiled reasonably often, if at
all.  WYSIWYG

I can not tell, but I am going to assume this is not a piece of fine museum
quality furniture.  This is household furniture for a middle class family?

What I can get from this:

At first it might appear to be Beech..... but the grain type is wrong. Beech
does age to this type of bland grey color.... if it is dirty.

I thought of Mahogany, but it just does not look like Mahogany... and there is
no red component to the piece....

Italians used a lot of walnut in their furniture.  European walnut which is
lighter in color than the dark black walnut we are more familiar with.

Walnut LIGHTENS with exposure to light, air, and disuse.  The environment
bleaches out the color.

Walnut is an open pore wood.

The KNOT looks like it is walnut.  Dark swirly patterning.  Those swirls hide
the original color within them....

I am betting on European Walnut..... French or Italian Walnut Lumber is
available time to time.  It may be a good match.....

See: https://www.gilmerwood.com/ He does not list any today, but a email may
elicit a response......

or Hearne Hardwoods has some at least for color and grain comparison....

https://store.hearnehardwoods.com/?filter_species=walnut-european

Frank Filippone
BMWRed735i@G...
275591 Kirk Eppler 2022‑05‑16 Re: Wood ID help needed
I don't know as much as Frank about wood, though I followed his thought
process.

I like this site for Wood ID also.  My first thought was Italian Chestnut,
as I've seen one other piece IDd as that.

https://www.hearnehardwoods.com/chestnut-european-lumber/

Not claiming chestnut, but a good website.

But I'd scrape the finish a bit, especially on those you are replacing, see
what it really looks like.

Kirk in Half Moon Bay, CA

On Mon, May 16, 2022 at 2:11 PM Paul Gardner  wrote:

> Assembled Galootarati,
>
> Some help if you please.  I've got a table that needs some repair work done
> that will require some replacement pieces.  I'd like to use the same
> species if possible but if that isn't in the cards I'd like a close match.
> The top obviously has a glaze or stain of some sort which will be reapplied
> when finished to match the rest of the piece.  The only hints I have is
> that the table is probably 80-100 years old and possibly Italian in
> origin.  Here are some pictures I hope will be helpful.  Any advice or
> suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
> https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-mMc3Ws3/A
>
> https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-LN25vGd/A
>
>
>


-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA 
275592 Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> 2022‑05‑17 Re: Wood ID help needed
My thought was chestnut.

On Monday, May 16, 2022, Kirk Eppler via groups.io  wrote:
275593 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2022‑05‑17 Re: Wood ID help needed
That would certainly make sense Bill.  Thanks very much!  Now that you say
this, friends gave me some "barn wood" from their property in Grass Valley,
CA back in 1999.  It is very old and I'm thinking it might be American
Chestnut.  I'm sure it dates from way before the blight.  I'll have to
check and report back.  Cheers!

-Paul
275595 Mike Rock <mikerock@m...> 2022‑05‑17 Re: Wood ID help needed
I had a buddy who was an engineer and Air Force Captain from NC. This 
would be 1965.....  I was going to the School of Mines in Rapid City. He 
headed back home when someone passed and brought back the first of many 
loads of American Chestnut from the sawmill and barn storage this 
relative had left for him.  Some of that stuff would stop the planer.  
from 6" to 24"+ wide, all about 12-15 feet long. I didn't appreciate at 
the time how valuable that stash was.  Dave was a good woodworker.  When 
he got out of the AF he headed to points west....  wish I'd kept a piece 
of that wood.  24".....can you imagine that!!

God bless
275597 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2022‑05‑17 Re: Wood ID help needed
Thanks Charlie, I'll bear this in mind. I'm hoping once I pull the current
finish off that I'll have a better understanding of what I'm dealing with.

Best,

Paul
275598 Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> 2022‑05‑17 Re: Wood ID help needed
given the sharp contrast of the sap/heart that’s not a bad call.  but olive
doesn’t have a lot of pores…

bill
275599 Michael Suwczinsky <nicknaylo@g...> 2022‑05‑17 Re: Wood ID help needed
Light walnut and chestnut are what first came to mind as well, jumping on
the bandwagon here. As for olive, I’ve done some slabbing of olive wood,
albeit a California Olive and it was a hard beast of a wood when dried,
hardly worth the effort to resaw in the first place. Does olive grow to
sizes that would make decent sized boards? None of the trunk logs resawn
were more than 6-7 inches at most.

Michael

On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 10:02 AM Bill Kasper  wrote:

> given the sharp contrast of the sap/heart that’s not a bad call.  but olive
> doesn’t have a lot of pores…
>
> bill
>
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022, Paul Gardner  wrote:
>
> > Thanks Charlie, I'll bear this in mind. I'm hoping once I pull the
> current
> > finish off that I'll have a better understanding of what I'm dealing
> with.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 6:46 AM Charles Driggs 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > > On May 16, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Paul Gardner  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Assembled Galootarati,  
> > > >
> > > >
> > > https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/
> > Paul-Gardner/i-mMc3Ws3/A
> > > >
> > > https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/
> > Paul-Gardner/i-LN25vGd/A
> > > >
> > > If that table is from Italy, my first reaction to the images might be
> > > correct —- there are a great many olive trees in Italy, so see if you
> can
> > > find some olive wood.
> > >
> > > Charlie
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> 
>
>
> --
Michael
275600 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2022‑05‑17 Re: Wood ID help needed
Can the original poster please tell us more about what the piece is?  A table
was mentioned... what size?  Dinner table type or occasional table?  How THICK
is the wood of the top?  .....  Is this a 4 legged table or a pedestal style?
Maybe a pix of the piece, complete, would answer these questions.....

When you strip off the finish, take a small area ( top or bottom works as well
as the other) and properly sand it and put on some BLO or something similar
(Shellac is OK too, but the various colors of Shellac will not help as much....
BLO looks like BLO....it varies little) to give us an idea of what this looked
like when it was originally made..... The oxidation of 100 years will then not
be present.....

What is the "clear" finish currently on the item?  It is possible to be shellac,
varnish, BLO, or.... Lacquer..... Lacquer  was jut becoming in style, and would
help dating it....  Use different solvents to establish.....

Italian furniture for the middle class in the 20's to 40's was pretty ornate...
and mostly made from Walnut.  Think lots of rounded surfaces and lots of
moulding work in the structure....  Also used during the period was a lot of
tables made with a top of marble.  ( My grandparents on both sides had this
stuff all over the house.... )

BTW The European walnut is/was BROWN toned, not BLACK toned as American Walnut
is......  The sanding and refinished sample will tell us much more.

Frank Filippone

BMWRed735i@G...
275601 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2022‑05‑17 Re: Wood ID help needed
Italian Chestnut, a wood I have no familiarity with, is also a possibility....
Sure has the gray appearance so familiar with Hickory ( not for this piece) and
chestnut....

I think knowing the purpose and target market (fancy rich folk?  Poor peasants (
more my Grandparents style)? or Middle class?  )
for the furniture would also help in this search......

Frank Filippone

BMWRed735i@G...
275602 Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> 2022‑05‑17 Re: Wood ID help needed
Paulie's got a lotta 'splainin' to do :)

On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 1:29 PM Frank Filippone 
wrote:
275603 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2022‑05‑17 Re: Wood ID help needed
Paul

Wood identification is both art and science, and generally darned 
frustrating.

FWIW, I wouldn't apply any chemicals at all until I had a chance to see 
the wood BEFORE it gets altered in any way by your process. And because 
sunshine bleaches so much furniture, I would suggest you flip it over, 
clean it and then apply a card scraper to the underside in one or two 
locations to see the variance in the wood there, even if it's been 
finished. That should give you a much better view of what you're working 
with.

In the end, you needn't absolutely repair with the same specie. 
Something close to grain and texture is most important. It's best to 
start with patches a bit lighter than the target. Colour you can always 
adjust with tints and finish. I'm sure Richard Wilson will provide more 
insight.

Good luck!

Don

On 2022-05-16 3:11 p.m., Paul Gardner wrote:
> Assembled Galootarati,
>
> Some help if you please.  I've got a table that needs some repair work done
> that will require some replacement pieces.  I'd like to use the same
> species if possible but if that isn't in the cards I'd like a close match.
> The top obviously has a glaze or stain of some sort which will be reapplied
> when finished to match the rest of the piece.  The only hints I have is
> that the table is probably 80-100 years old and possibly Italian in
> origin.  Here are some pictures I hope will be helpful.  Any advice or
> suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-mMc3Ws3/A
> https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-LN25vGd/A
>
> Paul, temporarily in LA
>
>
> 
>
>

-- 

God's away on business - Tom Waits

"...it's just a humpty dumpty world" - Ry Cooder
275604 Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> 2022‑05‑18 Re: Wood ID help needed
Hey - don’t drag me into this! 

I’ve been pleased to see the traffic go by.  

I was chatting to Tom Johnson in the workshop just yesterday over a slightly
mysterious veneered box with a very tasty veneered lid about what it could be,
and how to match in veneer for some chips from the corners.   The basis for all
of that repair (that’s relevant) would be to find timber in your stash to match.
Tom has samples worthy of a BAFRA stash  (BAFRA - The British Antique Furniture
Restorers)
To become a member of BAFRA you are inspected and have to show that you have an
adequate stash of old timber to be able to match anything that comes in for
grain / texture / colour.

The word ‘match’ is interesting.  I recommend you all join IWCS and gather some
samples, and swap samples, and trade samples and so forth.  You soon realise
that finding an exact match is probably impossible, and indeed, you’d need to
have the original tree and board to get the same growth conditions, so same
marking and density.  So we restore with something close, but lighter.  The
essential is to make an invisible join - avoid straight lines.

Then the skill - experience - comes in.  A likely route would be to use shellac
to seal the repair and make it controllable, and removable.  Then use gentle
stains to refine the colour.  I say gentle, because even if you know you have
the right colour (color, Paddy) you would apply at half or third strength,
aiming to apply several coats to creep up on the colour you need.  You may want
to use a water based stain so you can wipe it off if necessary, finally ending
up with the colour that will be correct after you apply a final seal of palest
blondest shellac.
Even then, you may not be done.
Take a fine artists paint brush and some acrylic paint, and mix up tones of
burnt umber, brown, black, yellow to match, and break up your joint line with
many, many many fine dots of colour so that the underlying joint line vanishes.
No strokes, just a near dry brush.

Then you apply the final top surface seal over the entire job.

And when you look at the time you spent, you shake your head to get the added
knowledge settled down in there and say ’That took too long, and cost too much
time and effort’
You also say ‘I could do better next time now I’ve had that experience’ 


And you go to sleep that night with a warm glow of slightly smug self
satisfaction, knowing that you’ve rescued something, saved something - the
planet, some valuable never to be found again tree, and most of all, your
sanity.

I’ll actually try and remember to take photo’s when I start in on that box.  


Richard Wilson
in a sunny Northumberland, where sunshine and summer has returned now that Tom
has left (Wonder if it’s connected)








> On 17 May 2022, at 21:53, Don Schwartz  wrote:
> 
> Paul
> 
> Wood identification is both art and science, and generally darned frustrating.
> 
> FWIW, I wouldn't apply any chemicals at all until I had a chance to see the
wood BEFORE it gets altered in any way by your process. And because sunshine
bleaches so much furniture, I would suggest you flip it over, clean it and then
apply a card scraper to the underside in one or two locations to see the
variance in the wood there, even if it's been finished. That should give you a
much better view of what you're working with.
> 
> In the end, you needn't absolutely repair with the same specie. Something
close to grain and texture is most important. It's best to start with patches a
bit lighter than the target. Colour you can always adjust with tints and finish.
I'm sure Richard Wilson will provide more insight.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Don
> 
> On 2022-05-16 3:11 p.m., Paul Gardner wrote:
>> Assembled Galootarati,
>> 
>> Some help if you please.  I've got a table that needs some repair work done
>> that will require some replacement pieces.  I'd like to use the same
>> species if possible but if that isn't in the cards I'd like a close match.
>> The top obviously has a glaze or stain of some sort which will be reapplied
>> when finished to match the rest of the piece.  The only hints I have is
>> that the table is probably 80-100 years old and possibly Italian in
>> origin.  Here are some pictures I hope will be helpful.  Any advice or
>> suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>> 
>> https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-
Gardner/i-mMc3Ws3/A
>> https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-
Gardner/i-LN25vGd/A
>> 
>> Paul, temporarily in LA



-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300
275608 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2022‑05‑18 Re: Wood ID help needed
I think butternut, walnut, chestnut would all work well and could be toned
as needed to match what you have
Cheers from Waterloo
Claudio

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 3:15 AM Richard Wilson <
yorkshireman@y...> wrote:
275609 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2022‑05‑18 Re: Wood ID help needed
Hey all, thanks very much for the tremendous feedback.  I'm traveling today
but will put some more pictures up tomorrow when I get home which I hope
will address some of the group's questions.  The underside of the piece
that didn't get the 90's bleached out treatment will probably be a lot more
helpful to the much appreciated sleuths helping out.  I'll be reporting
back soon.

Many thanks,

Paul, on I5
275610 scottg <scottg@s...> 2022‑05‑18 Re: Wood ID help needed
It looks remarkably similar to mahogany grain to me.
Mahogany comes in lots of colors, especially the less expensive species 
of it.
(there are dozens to hundreds of kinds of trees going under the mahogany 
name)

  Mahogany was THE name for a couple hundred years.
.Just like oak in the early 1900's and then again in the 1970's.
Every kind of oak (and chestnut too) was sold as oak furniture because 
it was so popular.

The one thing I know for sure, no matter how close you can come to the 
species/color of the original wood..............

   In the end you will find yourself putting the piece in very bright 
light and taking a pallet with artists colors,  mixing as close as you 
can to the desired color,
   then wiping the brush across paper or something until it is basically 
totally dry.

Once the brush is dry you continue to use it on the work, and 
miraculously, very random bits of color will still transfer to the work. 
If you use too much it shows like neon but if only really minor random 
bits of color transfers, then it blends.

  Do this straight on.
  Get over to the other side and view there, and up over top of it.
      Every angle.
  Mix a very slightly different color and dry brush that.

  Keep going and eventually your repair will disappear.
Its really the only way to genuinely match. In fact, its what they mean 
when they say match.
Every museum, and even the corner furniture store uses it.
  yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
275613 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2022‑05‑19 Re: Wood ID help needed
Opening up this discussion, there are two different issues with "matching":  One
is color.  the other is grain, both pattern and pore structure.

In my thoughts, matching the color will be relatively easy using dyes, glazes,
and other topical applications.  But matching the grain will be a more difficult
task.  Getting the right species helps, ditto cutting orientation ( quarter
sawn, flat sawn, etc).  But just like in making a new piece of furniture,
getting a "match" for two pieces of lumber, even from the same tree, and the
next plank over in the flitch, is a real challenge......

And why dyes, glazes, and other topical applications as well as Lacquer were
invented and used extensively..... or PAINT for that matter!

This is made more difficult in a non-thick film finish, like BLO/Danish Oil as
opposed to varnish or best, Lacquer......  The film acts like to hide the pore
differences.....fill the grain or not allows for some hiding or contrasting!,
but is imperfect still.

Sometimes you just need to buy into the belief that you can only do what you can
do.... it will never be"perfect".

If this were an original Townsend Highboy, needing repair and replacement of a
section, worth several times several million dollars, there is an unholy amount
of labor, expertise, and incentive to get it right.....  Ditto a Stradivarius
violin.

In this case, I do not think that same amount of effort is justifiable......

OTOH, I am not the owner nor the craftsman doing the work..

Remember this oft repeated statement... Do Your Best.

Get onto the next job.

Frank Filippone

BMWRed735i@G...
275618 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2022‑05‑20 Re: Wood ID help needed
I'm back, and as Bill K. remarked off-list to me - I've got a lot of
"splainin to do".

per Bill G.
>I have an Italian piece I inherited from my grandmother. To me it looks to
be a white oak and it looks just like your first >picture. However, it has
been bleached w/ oxalic acid. Could your top also have been bleached before
staining?

Not sure if it was given an oxalic acid bath at some point but the show
surfaces were definitely given a gel stain treatment at some point in its
life.  It actually scrapes off fairly easily, as I'll show with a picture
below.

Frank offers up a multitude of advice and questions:

>Can the original poster please tell us more about what the piece is?  A
table was mentioned... what size?  Dinner table >type or occasional table?
How THICK is the wood of the top?  .....  Is this a 4 legged table or a
pedestal style?  Maybe >a pix of the piece, complete, would answer these
questions.....

>Italian furniture for the middle class in the 20's to 40's was pretty
ornate... and mostly made from Walnut.  Think lots of >rounded surfaces and
lots of moulding work in the structure....

The top (which is the only issue I'll be addressing) is basic frame and
panel construction with the panels offset so that they are flush with the
surface. 29.5" x 51".  At some point the panels broke (most likely due to
wood movement) because they were glued on all sides.  The glue is hide glue
which is fortunate for me.  Frank's commentary on the ornateness of Italian
middle class furniture seems entirely in line with this piece.  Obviously
not made by top notch craftsmen but definitely made in a style that aspires
to be more than it is.  The feet were added by my parents as they were
banging their knees on the aprons trying to scooch their chairs in.

https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-xcg86Nv/A

Here is the top showing the extent of the damage.  On the left you can see
where (my theory) the glue joint of the panel overcame and separated both
the grain of the stile as well as the panel.  I assume there is a piece
that has been fished out but I haven't done careful measurements and I
won't know for sure until I get it apart.

https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-ht9c5hc/A
https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-kctcBWp/A
https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-VmsfSTT/A

here is the underside, I can definitely imagine this being given some sort
of treatment in the past but spared the more extreme coloring of the top:

https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-GWkQwfm/A


Per Claudio's request, here is a shot of the limited engrain options
visible on the piece after a quick scraping with a razorblade.

https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Other-Galoots/Paul-Gardner/i-B4mt53W/A

With the benefit of these recent photos, I think we can safely rule out
mahogany and possibly rule in some walnut species?

Many thanks to Don, Scott, and Richard for their excellent finishing advice
and to Frank for all the information as well as his wisdom concerning
moving forward with the restoration.  All very valuable.

Hopefully somewhere in my updates will be the hidden clue as to a positive
ID, but I have taken the advice of "good enough" to heart.  Many thanks.

-Paul, back in SF

On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:39 AM Frank Filippone 
wrote:
275624 Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> 2022‑05‑21 Re: Wood ID help needed
Paul gives us thousands of words in just a few pictures.  

In for repair is a fairly prosaic draw leaf table, with the detachable top
showing light signs of wear and damage.  What work are we commissioned to do?
The top has two panels set into a frame construction, with a split running the
length of one panel where stress in the shrinking panel had been relieved
probably due to the shrinkage of the panel being constrained by glue.
Additionally, shrinkage in each panel has caused one panel to sit skewed in its
housing, and the other to exhibit a parallel shrinkage gap


The colour (color, Paddy) is really the least of the problem. 

First off is to make a judgement on

1) Repair  / close the split
2) Repair / close the skewed gap.

The rest of the piece seems to be sound, so we’ll stop there. 

Choices

A) dismantle the top, correct all issues, reassemble and re-colour.
B) fill the splits, refinish. 

A) Dismantling a sound top is a huge commitment.  You say ‘Hide Glue’ which is
better than, say, epoxy or a PVA, but is still not to be undertaken lightly.
Attempt to remove the wedges, soak the joints, apply destructive levels of
pressure, wait, re soak, drill into the joint from below to apply spirit hoping
to break the glue line - let’s not go there.
Alternatively - can we saw it open, then build it back up?  Conceivably yes.
Sawing through the M&T joints horizontally would enable you to pull it apart,
free the panels, and eventually re-glue after cleaning the joint line.  Run a
profile through the glue line right round the table top using a scratch stock -
just a small something that would look right - a tiny V in cross section.  This
would leave the appearance of the ends looking sensible. Could work. Or you
could saw through the M&T following the existing joint, but rebuilding would
leave a witness on the end grain.
Then what - free the tops in their grooves, maybe add back a sliver of veneer to
close the gaps.  For the split, clean out as best as possible, then apply glue
and clamp closed.  Re finish the top, disguise the veneer, and the split maybe,
or leave it as patina.

B) the simpler way to go is to consider the ‘value’ of the piece and look for a
minimal intervention.  Personally, if I could stabilise the split, I would, then
allow it to exist, but filled with coloured wax as a bit of the history of the
item.  The skewed panel is harder.  If I can devise a way of rotating it so that
there is an even shrinkage gap with parallel edges, then I’d be tempted to do
that.  Maybe by glueing blocks to the bottom, or screwing blocks to the bottom,
then applying pressure to re-align the board.  If they are indeed hide glued in
place, then you could apply spirit to the joint line, or steam, in hopes of
breaking the glue joint as this proceeds.
If or when you can re-align them, you can choose to fill with veneer slips, or
again, just leave and incorporate into the new finish.


Then we get to re-finishing. 
There appear to be an additional two leaves to it.  How do the top of those
compare to the bleached top of the centre?  You need to re-finish those as well
to get a match.  And as the legs also appear to match the bleached out
appearance, how will you treat the rest of the carcass? - full strip and re-
finish, or just the top surfaces.
As someone said - test the bottom surface.  Prepare a couple of areas, and try
staining with something rich and something bland.  When you have your decision,
clean the top surfaces appropriately and apply.

Still - your table, your choice.  

My caveats being that it’s a tricky job. and I’d be looking at doing the least
work consistent with returning it to service, so a final coat of something
varnishy then maybe wax for that subtlety of sheen.  As a family piece, revel in
the backstory and the witness marks.

and FWIW - I believe it would be good with new clothes of a rosewood type stain,
but that would make it into an entirely different looking item, and som eof its
charm is likely to be in the washed out colour as it is.

Richard Wilson
Yorkshire Galoot
recently shamed by all the restoration items not restored awaiting attention,
and some abysmal application of wax to our everyday tables.





-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300
275627 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2022‑05‑22 Re: Wood ID help needed
I am on the same page as Richard.  The table IS lovely, a bit more refined
> than most draw leaf tables with the fluted detailing in the legs.... and
> the detailing at the top of the legs  It looks mass produced, not a one off
> piece
>
> This style of table is found a lot in The UK, and I believe it was very
> common in the 1910's through the 60's.  Most of those that I have seen were
> done in Oak.  Is it Italian?  Maybe. But maybe we are putting too much
> emphasis on European made?  It certainly is not the curvy furniture my
> grandparents owned. But  I digress......
>
> The end grain pix shows pretty closed grain structure (oak would have big
> pores, really like soda straws in 3d)
>
> does not look like oak.  It has a pretty well done glaze... which does a
> good job in hiding what the wood really is....a principle reason to use
> glaze.
>
> I am not so sure about my first guess at Euro Walnut..... It is also NOT
> Maple, Birch, ash (these 3 being closed pore species), exotic species like
> Rosewood, EBony, etc... not Mahogany or Beech (wrong grain pattern
> especially the end grain, additionally no beech fleck in the quarter sawn
> face).
>
> It probably is not Poplar.... but it might be..... I do not see a greenish
> color at all
>
> I am leaning more towards chestnut which is a common European (fruit) tree
> species.
>
> Chestnut looks to me like Pecan
>
> Not Pecan, maybe Butternut ( white walnut wood) but I thought that both of
> these were  an American species.
>
> With the stated provenance, it certainly challenges an obvious answer.
>
> Back to some earlier thoughts, WHY does this object NEED repair?  It does
> not seem to be falling apart  it is 60-80 years old and has a couple of
> issues  The customer is always right.   But this table has aged with
> character and grace. It is beautiful. It still fulfills its purpose.
>
> I wish it could speak to us to tell us what IT wants us to do!
>
>
> Frank Filippone
> BMWRed735i@G...
> On 5/21/2022 2:37 AM, Richard Wilson wrote:
>
> Paul gives us thousands of words in just a few pictures.
>
> In for repair is a fairly prosaic draw leaf table, with the detachable top
showing light signs of wear and damage.  What work are we commissioned to do?
> The top has two panels set into a frame construction, with a split running the
length of one panel where stress in the shrinking panel had been relieved
probably due to the shrinkage of the panel being constrained by glue.
Additionally, shrinkage in each panel has caused one panel to sit skewed in its
housing, and the other to exhibit a parallel shrinkage gap
>
>
> The colour (color, Paddy) is really the least of the problem.
>
> First off is to make a judgement on
>
> 1) Repair  / close the split
> 2) Repair / close the skewed gap.
>
> The rest of the piece seems to be sound, so we’ll stop there.
>
> Choices
>
> A) dismantle the top, correct all issues, reassemble and re-colour.
> B) fill the splits, refinish.
>
> A) Dismantling a sound top is a huge commitment.  You say ‘Hide Glue’ which is
better than, say, epoxy or a PVA, but is still not to be undertaken lightly.
Attempt to remove the wedges, soak the joints, apply destructive levels of
pressure, wait, re soak, drill into the joint from below to apply spirit hoping
to break the glue line - let’s not go there.
> Alternatively - can we saw it open, then build it back up?  Conceivably yes.
Sawing through the M&T joints horizontally would enable you to pull it apart,
free the panels, and eventually re-glue after cleaning the joint line.  Run a
profile through the glue line right round the table top using a scratch stock -
just a small something that would look right - a tiny V in cross section.  This
would leave the appearance of the ends looking sensible. Could work. Or you
could saw through the M&T following the existing joint, but rebuilding would
leave a witness on the end grain.
> Then what - free the tops in their grooves, maybe add back a sliver of veneer
to close the gaps.  For the split, clean out as best as possible, then apply
glue and clamp closed.  Re finish the top, disguise the veneer, and the split
maybe, or leave it as patina.
>
> B) the simpler way to go is to consider the ‘value’ of the piece and look for
a minimal intervention.  Personally, if I could stabilise the split, I would,
then allow it to exist, but filled with coloured wax as a bit of the history of
the item.  The skewed panel is harder.  If I can devise a way of rotating it so
that there is an even shrinkage gap with parallel edges, then I’d be tempted to
do that.  Maybe by glueing blocks to the bottom, or screwing blocks to the
bottom, then applying pressure to re-align the board.  If they are indeed hide
glued in place, then you could apply spirit to the joint line, or steam, in
hopes of breaking the glue joint as this proceeds.
> If or when you can re-align them, you can choose to fill with veneer slips, or
again, just leave and incorporate into the new finish.
>
>
> Then we get to re-finishing.
> There appear to be an additional two leaves to it.  How do the top of those
compare to the bleached top of the centre?  You need to re-finish those as well
to get a match.  And as the legs also appear to match the bleached out
appearance, how will you treat the rest of the carcass? - full strip and re-
finish, or just the top surfaces.
> As someone said - test the bottom surface.  Prepare a couple of areas, and try
staining with something rich and something bland.  When you have your decision,
clean the top surfaces appropriately and apply.
>
> Still - your table, your choice.
>
> My caveats being that it’s a tricky job. and I’d be looking at doing the least
work consistent with returning it to service, so a final coat of something
varnishy then maybe wax for that subtlety of sheen.  As a family piece, revel in
the backstory and the witness marks.
>
> and FWIW - I believe it would be good with new clothes of a rosewood type
stain, but that would make it into an entirely different looking item, and som
eof its charm is likely to be in the washed out colour as it is.
>
> Richard Wilson
> Yorkshire Galoot
> recently shamed by all the restoration items not restored awaiting attention,
and some abysmal application of wax to our everyday tables.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Frank Filippone
> BMWRed735i@g...
>
-- 
Frank Filippone
BMWRed735i@g...
275628 Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> 2022‑05‑22 Re: Wood ID help needed
Just to add to Frank's notes on material

I wondered about rubberwood - ye yes, ha haha.   But we see a good bit of it on
low end items here, and it has that grain characteristic, at least on the side.

One thing we didn’t ask - weight?   Heavy is usually good.  

and the thickness of the top?   it seems to be solid wood panels, so how thick?


There were lots of tables of this general style produced when timber was short.
I have some bits of a 2 pedestal version in the ’shop which I broke down.  It
was reasonably substantial looking when whole, but the ’solid’ bulbous
elizabethan type legs were in fact built up, and it was cunningly made from the
minimum amount of timber.   My parents, and now my brother had/have an oak table
with plywood panels, the top veneer, plus a balance underneath, are oak to match
the frame.  Top panel is, as Paul originally said, set into its groove by making
an assymetrical tongue.  Simple is efficient- can’t go wrong in the workshop.


Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot. 
07:00 and the sun has just hidden itself, after shining warmly from out at sea. 




> On 22 May 2022, at 02:02, Frank Filippone  wrote:
> 
> I am on the same page as Richard.  The table IS lovely, a bit more refined
>> than most draw leaf tables with the fluted detailing in the legs.... and
>> the detailing at the top of the legs  It looks mass produced, not a one off
>> piece
>> 
>> This style of table is found a lot in The UK, and I believe it was very
>> common in the 1910's through the 60's.  Most of those that I have seen were
>> done in Oak.  Is it Italian?  Maybe. But maybe we are putting too much
>> emphasis on European made?  It certainly is not the curvy furniture my
>> grandparents owned. But  I digress......
>> 
>> The end grain pix shows pretty closed grain structure (oak would have big
>> pores, really like soda straws in 3d)
>> 
>> does not look like oak.  It has a pretty well done glaze... which does a
>> good job in hiding what the wood really is....a principle reason to use
>> glaze.
>> 
>> I am not so sure about my first guess at Euro Walnut..... It is also NOT
>> Maple, Birch, ash (these 3 being closed pore species), exotic species like
>> Rosewood, EBony, etc... not Mahogany or Beech (wrong grain pattern
>> especially the end grain, additionally no beech fleck in the quarter sawn
>> face).
>> 
>> It probably is not Poplar.... but it might be..... I do not see a greenish
>> color at all
>> 
>> I am leaning more towards chestnut which is a common European (fruit) tree
>> species.
>> 
>> Chestnut looks to me like Pecan
>> 
>> Not Pecan, maybe Butternut ( white walnut wood) but I thought that both of
>> these were  an American species.
>> 
>> With the stated provenance, it certainly challenges an obvious answer.
>> 
>> Back to some earlier thoughts, WHY does this object NEED repair?  It does
>> not seem to be falling apart  it is 60-80 years old and has a couple of
>> issues  The customer is always right.   But this table has aged with
>> character and grace. It is beautiful. It still fulfills its purpose.
>> 
>> I wish it could speak to us to tell us what IT wants us to do!
>> 
>> 
>> Frank Filippone
>> BMWRed735i@G...
>> On 5/21/2022 2:37 AM, Richard Wilson wrote:
>> 
>> Paul gives us thousands of words in just a few pictures.
>> 
>> In for repair is a fairly prosaic draw leaf table, with the detachable top
showing light signs of wear and damage.  What work are we commissioned to do?
>> The top has two panels set into a frame construction, with a split running
the length of one panel where stress in the shrinking panel had been relieved
probably due to the shrinkage of the panel being constrained by glue.
Additionally, shrinkage in each panel has caused one panel to sit skewed in its
housing, and the other to exhibit a parallel shrinkage gap
>> 
>> 
>> The colour (color, Paddy) is really the least of the problem.
>> 
>> First off is to make a judgement on
>> 
>> 1) Repair  / close the split
>> 2) Repair / close the skewed gap.
>> 
>> The rest of the piece seems to be sound, so we’ll stop there.
>> 
>> Choices
>> 
>> A) dismantle the top, correct all issues, reassemble and re-colour.
>> B) fill the splits, refinish.
>> 
>> A) Dismantling a sound top is a huge commitment.  You say ‘Hide Glue’ which
is better than, say, epoxy or a PVA, but is still not to be undertaken lightly.
Attempt to remove the wedges, soak the joints, apply destructive levels of
pressure, wait, re soak, drill into the joint from below to apply spirit hoping
to break the glue line - let’s not go there.
>> Alternatively - can we saw it open, then build it back up?  Conceivably yes.
Sawing through the M&T joints horizontally would enable you to pull it apart,
free the panels, and eventually re-glue after cleaning the joint line.  Run a
profile through the glue line right round the table top using a scratch stock -
just a small something that would look right - a tiny V in cross section.  This
would leave the appearance of the ends looking sensible. Could work. Or you
could saw through the M&T following the existing joint, but rebuilding would
leave a witness on the end grain.
>> Then what - free the tops in their grooves, maybe add back a sliver of veneer
to close the gaps.  For the split, clean out as best as possible, then apply
glue and clamp closed.  Re finish the top, disguise the veneer, and the split
maybe, or leave it as patina.
>> 
>> B) the simpler way to go is to consider the ‘value’ of the piece and look for
a minimal intervention.  Personally, if I could stabilise the split, I would,
then allow it to exist, but filled with coloured wax as a bit of the history of
the item.  The skewed panel is harder.  If I can devise a way of rotating it so
that there is an even shrinkage gap with parallel edges, then I’d be tempted to
do that.  Maybe by glueing blocks to the bottom, or screwing blocks to the
bottom, then applying pressure to re-align the board.  If they are indeed hide
glued in place, then you could apply spirit to the joint line, or steam, in
hopes of breaking the glue joint as this proceeds.
>> If or when you can re-align them, you can choose to fill with veneer slips,
or again, just leave and incorporate into the new finish.
>> 
>> 
>> Then we get to re-finishing.
>> There appear to be an additional two leaves to it.  How do the top of those
compare to the bleached top of the centre?  You need to re-finish those as well
to get a match.  And as the legs also appear to match the bleached out
appearance, how will you treat the rest of the carcass? - full strip and re-
finish, or just the top surfaces.
>> As someone said - test the bottom surface.  Prepare a couple of areas, and
try staining with something rich and something bland.  When you have your
decision, clean the top surfaces appropriately and apply.
>> 
>> Still - your table, your choice.
>> 
>> My caveats being that it’s a tricky job. and I’d be looking at doing the
least work consistent with returning it to service, so a final coat of something
varnishy then maybe wax for that subtlety of sheen.  As a family piece, revel in
the backstory and the witness marks.
>> 
>> and FWIW - I believe it would be good with new clothes of a rosewood type
stain, but that would make it into an entirely different looking item, and som
eof its charm is likely to be in the washed out colour as it is.
>> 
>> Richard Wilson
>> Yorkshire Galoot
>> recently shamed by all the restoration items not restored awaiting attention,
and some abysmal application of wax to our everyday tables.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Frank Filippone
>> BMWRed735i@g...
>> 
> -- 
> Frank Filippone
> BMWRed735i@g...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300
275631 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2022‑05‑23 Re: Wood ID help needed
One half of the List's famous brace of Yorkshireman provides a wealth of
sound advice which I will need to consider very carefully moving forward.
He also brings up additional questions that should be answered before
retiring this subject to the archives.  The question of weight is an
insightful one and I'm kicking myself for not including it with previous
remarks.  The bathroom scale, banished to the garage for repeated acts of
impertinence, judges the weight of this  29.5" x 51" table to be 23 lbs.
(approx. 10.5 kg, Jeff) and my trusty outside calibers hailing from Athol,
Massachusetts put panel thickness at 1/2".  Lifting this top feels "lighter
than expected" to this galoot, but that's never been an accepted standard
despite my petitions to International Bureau of Weights and Measures.

The "customer" and the primary mover and shaker in fixing these gaps is my
mother - a house proud west country girl who has grown weary of the ritual
wrangling of crumbs that escape the spackling of butter, marmalade or
Marmite on the morning toast. Doubtless you have also concluded that she is
completely dug-in with the camp of individual place settings on the great
debate v. table cloths and is impervious to such practical, low cost
prophylactics.  Not only does this necessitate a more extreme remedy, but
it also renders our crumb scraper - a travel trophy my father charmed off a
French waiter - superfluous and deprives him of a "ready made" story
telling opportunity at the table.  When dad (a less famous Yorkshireman
than the two aforementioned) saw the temporary substitute I made - a sheet
of quality birch plywood with a 1/4" round over and 6 coats of Varathane
finish - he correctly forecast my mothers delight in the color match and
its gap-free nature as well as her response that I could "take as long as I
like with the repairs".  Such proclamations bandied about in the company of
galoots are risky.  I'm not sure she was fully aware of this peril and I
didn't enlighten her.

Thanks again for all the helpful and valuable responses. I'll let you know
how it goes.

Paul, in SF



On Sat, May 21, 2022 at 11:10 PM Richard Wilson <
yorkshireman@y...> wrote:
275633 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2022‑05‑24 Re: Wood ID help needed
May I suggest, given the the owner is a prominent superior of one of our own,
and wants the table fixed, maybe the easiest and safest solution is to make a
completely new top..

copy the existing top, using whatever wood you want.....or can get.  Finish to
fit the application or as the original was done..

I wonder why all of us never thought of this approach......?

Frank Filippone

BMWRed735i@G...
275635 Kirk Eppler 2022‑05‑24 Re: Wood ID help needed
This may help ensure that he stays on Galoot Standard Time.  Though I
suspect that the repair might actually take longer than starting from
scratch.

Kirk in Half Moon Bay, swimming in chaos of other's creation.

On Mon, May 23, 2022 at 8:37 PM Frank Filippone 
wrote:

> May I suggest, given the the owner is a prominent superior of one of our
> own, and wants the table fixed, maybe the easiest and safest solution is to
> make a completely new top..
>
> copy the existing top, using whatever wood you want.....or can get.
> Finish to fit the application or as the original was done..
>
> I wonder why all of us never thought of this approach......?
>
> Frank Filippone
>
>
>


-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA 
275636 Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> 2022‑05‑24 Re: Wood ID help needed
Knowing Paul, he'll inlay the fix with semi-precious wood, and crushed
semi-precious stones under clear epoxy.  Time to call Ea, Paul?

Bill
Felton, CA

On Tue, May 24, 2022 at 9:45 AM Kirk Eppler via groups.io  wrote:
275637 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2022‑05‑24 Re: Wood ID help needed
LOL. This is Kasper's delicate way of saying my kintsugi should have turned
left at Albuquerque.  Actually, Richard came up with the corker of just
drawing in the lines on the current plywood with the appropriately sized
pen tip and calling it a day.  There's a man who thinks outside the box!

-Paul, in SF
275638 gtgrouch@r... 2022‑05‑24 Re: Wood ID help needed
I made the mistake of drinking coffee whilst reading the felt tip
idea Suffice it to say that I have found a new way to use coffee in
addition to the time honored method of treating it as if it were a
beverage

Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA

_postscriptum_: To use my kid's vernacular, "0/10 - do NOT recommend."

	-----------------------------------------From: "Paul Gardner" 
To: "Dragon List"
Cc: "Kirk Eppler", "Frank Filippone", "Tools Old"
Sent: Tuesday May 24 2022 1:35:04PM
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Wood ID help needed

 LOL. This is Kasper's delicate way of saying my kintsugi should have
turned
 left at Albuquerque. Actually, Richard came up with the corker of
just
 drawing in the lines on the current plywood with the appropriately
sized
 pen tip and calling it a day. There's a man who thinks outside the
box!

 -Paul, in SF

 On Tue, May 24, 2022 at 10:16 AM Dragon List  wrote:

 > Knowing Paul, he'll inlay the fix with semi-precious wood, and
crushed
 > semi-precious stones under clear epoxy. Time to call Ea, Paul?
 >
 > Bill
 > Felton, CA
 >
 > On Tue, May 24, 2022 at 9:45 AM Kirk Eppler via groups.io 
gene.com@g...> wrote:
 >
 >> This may help ensure that he stays on Galoot Standard Time. Though
I
 >> suspect that the repair might actually take longer than starting
from
 >> scratch.
 >>
 >> Kirk in Half Moon Bay, swimming in chaos of other's creation.
 >>
 >> On Mon, May 23, 2022 at 8:37 PM Frank Filippone 
 >> wrote:
 >>
 >> > May I suggest, given the the owner is a prominent superior of
one of our
 >> > own, and wants the table fixed, maybe the easiest and safest
solution
 >> is to
 >> > make a completely new top..
 >> >
 >> > copy the existing top, using whatever wood you want.....or can
get.
 >> > Finish to fit the application or as the original was done..
 >> >
 >> > I wonder why all of us never thought of this approach......?
 >> >
 >> > Frank Filippone
 >> >
 >> >
 >> >
 >>
 >>
 >> --
 >> Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA 
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>

 



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