OldTools Archive
Recent | Bios | FAQ |
274562 | Dan Beck <drumsandbacon@g...> | 2021‑09‑17 | Wood tap and die |
Does anyone have any experience with a wood tap and die set like this one: https://taytools.com/products/wood-tap-die-sets?variant=18507395498035 I want to build a moxon vise and I really like wooden screws, so I’d like to buy a wood tap and die. This type is less expensive than others I’ve seen, so I’m wondering if it is any good. Thanks, Dan -- I'm a simple man. I like pretty dark-haired women and breakfast food. |
|||
274563 | Larry Holland | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
(Snip) I have several sizes of this type, Dan, both tap & die. They work best on hardwood; I always coated with beeswax first, and get rid of shavings frequently. Dutch, back into stealth mode. |
|||
274564 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
Not sure why, but I understand the proper term for the tool that cuts the male screw thread is called a screw-box. Possibly because many have no handles at all, resembling a simple rectangular block of wood with a hole tapped in it. Perhaps someone overseas can lend some insight. FWIW Don On 2021-09-16 6:33 p.m., Larry Holland via groups.io wrote: > (Snip) > > I have several sizes of this type, Dan, both tap & die. They work best on hardwood; I always coated with beeswax first, and get rid of shavings frequently. > > Dutch, back into stealth mode. >> On Sep 16, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Dan Beck |
|||
274565 | Chuck Taylor | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
Dan, You asked ==begin snip== Does anyone have any experience with a wood tap and die set like this one: https://taytools.com/products/wood-tap-die-sets?variant=18507395498035 ==end snip== I have used similar tools with some success. The one word in the description I would quibble with is "effortlessly". In my experience, they are a bit finickity to adjust and use. The cutter needs to be sharp and adjusted just so. I suggest setting the cutter for a light cut at first, increasing the depth of cut incrementally on subsequent passes. On subsequent passes be careful to center the cutter in the groove. Also, be careful when sharpening not to mess up the cutter's geometry. If you are using store-bought dowels, be sure to check that the dowel is in fact round and that it is the size the seller says it is. Don't ask me how I learned these things. :-) Good luck! Chuck Taylor north of Seattle USA |
|||
274566 | Darrell <larchmont479@g...> | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
On 16/09/2021, Dan Beck |
|||
274567 | gary allan may | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
Chuck: You are, and you remain, the man. Thanks for spelling it out. I'd like to add: $43.99 is not a lot to risk. If it takes a week, and you get one good screw for a lifetime vise, that's probably not the worst tool deal you'll ever make. back to work---gam in OlyWA/USA How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one cares for none of them! Jane Austen On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 06:14:49 PM PDT, Chuck Taylor via groups.io |
|||
274568 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
Hi Darrell Have you found soaking with RLO to help with the vintage tap & screw-box as well? So far, I haven't done that, but I've had mixed results, which I attributed to - lack of skill - poor choice of stock - poor sharpening or set of the cutter - some combination of the above... Don On 2021-09-16 8:57 p.m., Darrell wrote: > On 16/09/2021, Dan Beck |
|||
274569 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
I’d add a couple more comments: Choice of wood stock is critical. Straight grain, knot free, stable hard wood without much difference in hardness between summer and winter wood (uniform grain) is what you are looking for (beech, hard maple, elm, persimmon, fruit woods like apple, pear). Making internal threads is usually more successful (easier) than cutting the external threads (which sometimes peel off /split off in some sections because of weak side grain). The difficulty in cutting threads increases exponentially with increasing OR decreasing size with ⅝” to ¾” threads being relatively easiest with this method). Most of the old die stocks that I have found in the wild were about this size, used for making the luthier clamps (two wooden threaded disks threaded onto a dowel used for gluing up violins and guitars), or wooden threaded clamps similar to the Jorgensen style wooden hand screws) or various side-arm planes. If you are looking to make 2” diameter screw threads for a leg clamp or a cider press, this method doesn’t really work very well for that. St Roy has a couple of articles on how to make a screw box in one of his books as well as in an episode of his PBS show (that you might be able to find and watch free online). He also shows methods for cutting the big 1 or 2 tpi screws used for huge screws used in eg. communal cider/wine presses in one of his books. Cheers from Waterloo Claudio Snip |
|||
274570 | Phil Schempf <philschempf@g...> | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
Schwarz and Co. at Lost Art Press have some strong opinions on modern thread boxes. You can find them by doing a search for “Lost Art Press blog thread”. Beall Tool Co. sell dowels specifically for threading in limited sizes and wood species. Not the cheapest, but may save some frustration if they have something that meets your needs. https://www.bealltool.com/products/threading/dowels.php Phil |
|||
274571 | Kirk Eppler | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
Dan Having never done this, although I have acquired a few taps and one screw box, none matching, I will offer my 2 cents anyways. Search the archives for Tom Conroy and wood threads. He has posted a lot on the subject (213 hits), and probably has made more threaded rods than I have made misteaks (well, maybe not that many, maybe mysteaks this month, or year). He will talk about how this thread set is probably too fine pitch, what wood you want, how to prep etc. And they are all a good read. Very similar to what the other guys have already posted, but combined into one post, with lots of extra personal experience. site:swingleydev.com/ot Tom Conroy wood threads Kirk in Half Moon Bay, CA, stumbling around, pretending I'm getting work done, while eating, playing with the dogs, and reading email |
|||
274573 | James Warburton | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
Hi all, I have had great success using the commercially available screw boxes. I have used the 1 1/4” for Moxon vices , double screw vices and even wagon vices. There are two things that make life a lot better: soaking the dowels in mineral oil for a week or so and fine tuning the cutters so that it doesn’t pinch. Farm supply S outlets have the best price on mineral oil up here. Good luck, James |
|||
274572 | Darrell <larchmont479@g...> | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
On 17/09/2021, Don Schwartz |
|||
274574 | Thomas Conroy | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
O Galoots: I'm under the weather today and not up to proper snipping, and over the years I've posted so many thousands of words on this topic that I am tired, tired. But a few points arise. For the male screws, the threadbox is very pick about wood, and it goes way beyond just using even-grained species. Well-aged beech is one of the best woods, but fresh beech will shrink so much that after a couple of years the screws may pull right out of the holes. Happened to a friend of mine. Cherry is too brittle; the thread will break off as you cut it. I destroyed about four yards of 1" cherry dowel learning that. The very best screws I've made were from split black locust, if you can get it. Black walnut is in my experience the best commercial wood, provided you pick it carefully enough that the grain is as straight along your screw as a split blank would give. Maple will do, but it tends to give a slightly rough screw. Don't worry about the crap Beall tries to feed you about the importance of a precision-cut wood blank; oh, it's important for their router jig, all right, which registers on the outer surface of the dowel, but a screw box registers on the screw itself, on the surface you have just cut, so all that really matters is that it isn't too big. Don't forget that wood is constantly shrinking and expanding; the precisely circular-section blank that they ship you from Ohio will be an oval the day after you take it out of the box in California. On the other hand, having straight grain dead along the blank is really important; if you can turn your blanks, its better to use split wood; if you must use dowels, or commercial saw-cut turning squares, I'd reject nineteen out of twenty based on grain running out. Old ikea chair legs are a good source for well-aged beech, if you can turn them down. Just about any reasonable hard wood will do for the female threads, even modern mahogany so soft you can dent it with a fingernail. Modern mahogany is unthreadable, it just gets chewed up by the screwbox because it is so soft, but even mahogany will take female thread and make good press (vise) cheeks. The Chinese and Taiwanese screwboxes with aluminum lead sections are "Conover- style," pirated from a very well-designed and well-made line that Ernie Conover sold decades ago. It was conover who revived the screw box-tap after it had gone out of production in England and Ameriica. Conover had a proper balance of pitch (threads per inch) and diameter, with 7 t.p.i. on the 3/4" size (if I recall correctly) and 6 t.p.i. on the 1". Traditionally, a 1-1/8" size would have had 5 t.p.i., 1-1/4" would be 4 t.p.i., and above that you would have to go to two- cutter screwboxes. A screw for a bench vise might be 2-1/2" diameter and two or three t.p.i. Conover only made threading kits up to 1" but after the Chinese ripped him off they soon found that there was a demand for bigger screws; so they introduced a 1-1/4" size and a 1-1//2" size, and maybe some larger ones. The trouble was, since they were copying without knowledge or understanding, they gave all the sizes above 1" the same pitch and cutter size: 6 t.p.i. This is pitch is workable but a bit small and slow for a two-screw wooden bookbinder's finishing press, functionally identical to the so-called "moxon vise"----I know what I'm speaking about here, I've made dozens of them with my Taiwanese screwboxes. I-1/4" and 6 t.p.i. is very slow unless you "twirl" the press like a hand clamp to open and close it, but still functional. 1-1/2" at 6 t.p.i. is bad in every way. Check the archive for explorations of the problems. If you want to make the kind of half-assed flat-cheeked dovetailing jig that Chris Schwarz invented and dubbed "Moxon vise," then a 1" or 1-1/4" Taiwanese screwbox will do just fine, at least up to 15" between screws--- my experience doesn't go much larger than that, but I would want a larger, faster screw for a length greater that that. If you want an installed bench vise that is more than a toy, you will have to go to a German two-cutter screwbox in a size of or over 1-3/4" and 3 t.p.i., and a cost of upwards of $500.00 or $1,000.00. For smaller screws, up to 1-1/4 with 6 t.p.i., the Taiwanese/Chinese sets still seem to be good tools at a great price. This was certainly true when I bought mine, but that was thirty years ago. Router jigs are an option, if you make your own, and the very best of all is a screwcutting lathe if you have the capacity for a large pitch (2 t.p.i. to 5 t.p.i.) and if you can make or find the special shape cutters that are needed for large wood threads. Or if you have the money, the German screwboxes and taps (used to be available from Dieter Schmid, I think) are the gold standard, with no downside except their price. I've run out of steam, and I'm starting to repeat myself, which is bad even if you catch it and erase it. But this is not a new topic; browse the archives. Tom ConroyBerkeley |
|||
274575 | Adam R. Maxwell | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
> On Sep 17, 2021, at 10:03 , Thomas Conroy via groups.io |
|||
274576 | Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
I’d love to know on the 5/8-3/4 type sizes whether for cutting make threads people are on team: A. Set the cutter to final depth and cut the threads in one pass Or B. Set the cutter for less than final depth and cut the threads in multiple passes. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO |
|||
274577 | James Warburton | 2021‑09‑17 | Re: Wood tap and die |
Hi, In my experience trying a second pass is a recipe for disaster. If the wood is soaked in oil it cuts like butter the first time. James |
|||
274578 | James DuPrie <jbn.duprie@g...> | 2021‑09‑18 | Re: Wood tap and die |
I've always cut in one pass (I have a set of cheapo tap and dies I got about 30 years ago to experiment with. My biggest is 1"). Use a good straight, tight grained wood. I always cut them dry, and used the "1 turn in, 1/2 turn out" rule. Never had any real problems if I made my own dowels. Store bought dowels never worked for crap though. -James On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 4:50 PM James Warburton via groups.io |
|||
274579 | Thomas Conroy | 2021‑09‑19 | Re: Wood tap and die |
James Warburton wrote: "In my experience trying a second pass is a recipe for disaster. If the wood is soaked in oil it cuts like butter the first time;" and James DuPrie wrote: "I've always cut in one pass (I have a set of cheapo tap and dies I got about 30 years ago to experiment with. My biggest is 1"). Use a good straight, tight grained wood. I always cut them dry, and use the "1 turn in, 1/2 turn out" rule. Never had any real problems if I made my own dowels. Store bought dowels never worked for crap though." Pretty much my own experience. I learned to thread steel in junior high by the one advance - one-half back method, so I used that at first; but eventually I decided that the half back was breaking off good thread as well as clearing the chip, and I stopped doing it. As much as possible I turn the entire thread in one steady pass, because for me if I pause to shift my hands I tend to get a little jog in the cut surface. Trying to make a second pass along the whole screw is always disastrous for me. I always lubricated/soaked with BLO because I was going to use that for the finish, and I didn't mind having surfaces contaminated with it. I went through various soaking times, from just a wipe on to six or eight hours, but ended up soaking a few minutes just before I cut the thread; you can see after cutting how little the oil actually penetrates the wood, and it doesn't seem to go deeper in hours of immersion than in minutes. After the screw was entirely done I would immerse the screw completely in BLO for hours, long past the point when bubbles kept coming out, then drain it and warp it in paper towels to blot it, with a wrap of twine along the thread to push the paper towels down into contact, leave it like that for an hour or two to blot off anything from the surface. When the thread came out of the oil it was very delicate, and before I learned to be careful I once or twice broke off bits of thread with a brush of the hand, but after a day or two it firmed up and I think that the BLO made the thread stronger once it had cured. I cut my blanks on a slow foot-treadle lathe, running maybe 400-600 r.p.m.m and I found that it was best always to cut the handle base/bearing surface from the same piece of wood as the screw. If I made a thread on one dowel and then glued it into the handle, the force of tightening the final press would often pull the thread right out of the handle. After completing the thread and before soaking it in oil I would put the screw back on the lathe and smooth down the working surfaces of the thread using a triangularl file or what I think of as a "thread float," a tool I made, sort of a mixture of a gunstock-checkering tool and a cabinetmaker's float, which I could make coarser than a file but finer than an actual float would be. Repeated passes both smoothed the thread and opened it out a bit so that there was more play in the completed press/vise; play is needed to avoid jamming or freezing over time. All this is for the male thread; the female thread is completely different, and much less apt to go wrong. I wipe BLO down into the hole to lubricate. After the first pass with the tap I make repeated passes to open it out morel "wallering it out" by angling the pressure toward the compass points as I make the repeated passes. The completed female thread always is pretty rough looking, but roughness doesn't seem to harm its durabilty or make it run less smoothly. Have to go get my walk, almost too late for it. Cheers! Tom |
|||
274580 | Dan Beck <drumsandbacon@g...> | 2021‑09‑19 | Re: Wood tap and die |
Thank you, one and all, for all of this marvelous info. Yet again you all blow me away with your breadth of knowledge and you generosity of sharing it. My inclination is to respond to each of you, but I will resist. Please just know that I will be referencing this thread (and the other info Mr. Conroy has shared in previous posts) a lot, I am sure. One more question - what is the general consensus (if there is one) for the ideal diameter of wood screws for a Moxon vise? I was leaning towards 1-1/4” but would a smaller diameter work? 3/4”? -Dan -- I'm a simple man. I like pretty dark-haired women and breakfast food. |
|||
274581 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2021‑09‑19 | Re: Wood tap and die |
The issue with the offerings I have seen is that the pitch is way too fine for the large diameters. If i recall correctly, the manufacturers in China used the same pitch for the large ones (6 tpi or something, same as the small ones), resulting in very weak, thin threads that sheared off. Maybe they have improved now, not sure (I haven’t looked at these for maybe 20 years, holy crap time flies). As for diameter for a Moxon, I think it depends on the size you intend to make but I’ve no experience to share. Claudio in Waterloo |
|||
274582 | Bill Ghio | 2021‑09‑20 | Re: Wood tap and die |
> On Sep 19, 2021, at 5:24 PM, Claudio DeLorenzi |
|||
274583 | Chuck Taylor | 2021‑09‑20 | Re: Wood tap and die |
Gentle Galoots, I agree with others that 6 tpi is too fine for 1-1/2" threads. But they do have their uses. I have a local friend who is an amateur bookbinder. Several years ago he showed me a finishing press he had purchased, made of fine hardwood. It looked great, but the threads were seized. He was about to throw it in the fireplace, even though he had paid something like $300 for it. The threads were 1-1/2 by 6 tpi, so I figured it was made from one of the Taiwanese threading kits of that size. We made a deal: If I could repair it, he would pay for the threading kit (about $50 IIRC) and bind a book for me. I managed to unstick the threads slowly and re-cut the threads. The results weren't as pretty as I would have liked, but he was happy with the result because he now has a usable finishing press. I was happy because I now have a 1-1/2" threading kit and a very nicely rebound copy of my 1896 edition of "Norie's Navigation: A Complete Epitome of Practical Navigation and Nautical Astronomy". Chuck Taylornorth of Seattle USA |
|||
274584 | gary allan may | 2021‑09‑20 | Re: Wood tap and die |
Great story---Keep on posting Chuck Taylornorth! How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one cares for none of them! Jane Austen On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 06:19:50 PM PDT, Chuck Taylor via groups.io |
|||
274589 | Thomas Conroy | 2021‑09‑20 | Re: Wood tap and die |
Chuck Taylor wrote: "...I have a local friend who is an amateur bookbinder. Several years ago he showed me a finishing press he had purchased, made of fine hardwood. It looked great, but the threads were seized. He was about to throw it in the fireplace, even though he had paid something like $300 for it. The threads were 1-1/2 by 6 tpi, so I figured it was made from one of the Taiwanese threading kits of that size. "We made a deal: If I could repair it, he would pay for the threading kit (about $50 IIRC) and bind a book for me. I managed to unstick the threads slowly and re-cut the threads. The results weren't as pretty as I would have liked, but he was happy with the result because he now has a usable finishing press. I was happy because I now have a 1-1/2" threading kit and a very nicely rebound copy of my 1896 edition of "Norie's Navigation: A Complete Epitome of Practical Navigation and Nautical Astronomy". Good story, Chuck. I've had in four or five presses, maybe more than that, to repair because of sticking screws. The modern screwboxes are made for metal-type tolerances, and don't allow for wood movement; so when they are shipped across country, or just with age if the wood was too wet, they sieze up. Attempts are frequently made to lubricate them by rubbing beeswax on the screws; but beeswax is a sticky wax, not a slippery wax, and the beeswaax sticks things together and pills up in the threads, jamming the press worse than ever. I carved out the screws with a sharp chisel, one chip at a time, one after the next. I carved only the side of the thread that pushes the press open, not the side that puts on the pressure when closing. I faired down with a file or my "screw float" after cutting it looser. The point is to get a bit of playl to allow for wood movement. A well-made wood- screw press should have a bit of rattle right down to the last moment, when the pressure comes on; the pressure should pull everything into line as well as tight. I'd say given the Taiwanese sizes, a "moxon vise" should be 1-1/4" without doubt. I made several dozen presses with a 1" screwbox before I got my first 1-1/4". The 1" size tends to be fragile, not in the screws but at the groove cut in the unthreaded area as part of the garter mechanism (or the peg equivalent in finishing presses); with a 1" screw the groove leaves an wasp-waist area in the screw that is only 1/2" in diameter. I made measured drawings of many old finishing presses when I was making presses, and found that the screw diameter was normally 1-1/4" and 4 t.p.i. The range was maybe 1-1/9" to 1-3/8" and 3.5 to 5 t.p.i. but the smallest diameter didn't necessarily have the finest pitch. Of course this is for holding books, not holding wood, but I don't see any reason books and wood would need different size screws. Generally finishing presses are about 12" between screws up to 16" or 18" between screws, but there were some monster finishing presses up to about three feet long overall, still meant to sit loose on the bench top, still with handles for tightening, and with roughly 11-1/4" screws. Binders' lying presses are another matter. They are designed to put on a lot of pressure, to really squish things flat, so they are big (usually 3'-4' overall) and live permanently on a special-purpose frame called a "tub" though it isn't very tublike. Their screws are typically 2-1/4" or 2-1/2"diameter, two of them, and 2 t.p.i. or 3 t.p.i. They don't have handles, they have (essentially) tommy bars (a "press pin" of steel that is moved from screw to screw). But none of that is really pertinent to "moxon vises," which are closely analogous to finishing presses. |
|||
Recent | Bios | FAQ |